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Pork Chop, and Smokeydays,.... I think you fellas might have a mistake'n opinion of fellas like Ohio Joe, and I.

We as traditionalists,.... define "traditional muzzleloaders" as those being simular in, design, function, and materials used in their constuction, to muzzleloaders made prior to the year 1900.

..... and neither of us has said anythin about "cloths", or, "powder"!!

YMHS
rollingb
 
rollingb,
I don't know if you consider percussion shooter, traditional or not. I know some around here that would rather lump them in with inlines and cartridge fire. Myself I prefer to shoot percusion cap...at this time. As time marches on I find myself becoming more selective about what I want to shoot, and who knows maybe someday I'll turn to a flintlock if one comes my way at a reasonable price. But to those elitist, I consider it their loss if they are so quick to condem others for what they decide to shoot. My brother inlaw shoots one of those inlines. I looked at the guts of it, decided I didn't want anything to do with it! I'm not going to condem the man for owning it though. It just ain't my cup of tea.
In some circles I have seen factory built guns (TC's Lymans, Traditions etc.) looked upon with disdain. they aren't traditional or even good replicas. I shoot what I can afford! They can accept me and my guns if they want, that's totally up to them.

As to the NMLRA and inlines I can't adequetly respond to that. I just don't have enough info on it. BUT IN MY OPINION, There's a glut of them out there, and you can't ignore them. So you might as well try to regulate what they do with them.

Smokeydays


Smokeydays, I'm just posting next in line so this is not a response to you directly, etc.

IMO...reading all these posts it seems that this sort of discussion gets going and gains a lot of momentum...then I think without realizing it opinions start getting polarized into oppositie, extreme categories, assumptions get made about what people might mean by their comments, etc.

For example, I'm not sure some of the opinions expressed here make someone an 'elitiest' at all, or makes them to be looking down their noses at someone at all...I think those are incorrect assumptions.

I don't see the differences as a "class" issue...I see it as a difference in specialized interests...the best way I know how to explain it is to borrow a post someone else made several weeks ago:

One day, out of untold thousands of motorcycle enthusiasts, a movement begins to form up a Harley-Davidson club to focus on, specialize, and preserve Harley-Davidson motorcycles, activities, etc...they form a club, pay dues, start newsletters, hold meetings, bike rides, ralleys, fund raisers, lease land to conduct their special events on, etc, etc.

Then along comes somebody riding a Suzuki and wants to join.
They explain it's a Harley-Davidson club, no Suzuki's allowed, etc.

That does not make the Harley-Davidson members elitists...it does not make them looking down their noses at anyone, or any other bike...they've simply gravitated together in a group focused on Harley-Davidsons, period.
Other people can ride Suzuki's all day if they want to and the Harley-Davidson crown could care less.

I don't see people who have interests in 'traditional' muzzleloading any different from that motorcycle example...I myself started out with an inline 15 years ago, transitioned to sidelock percussions, and currently use flintlocks...but I don't care if someone else wants to shoot inlines.

Like the H-D / Suzuki example, I do think they need to start their own focus groups, get their own activities organized like the Traditionalists did setting up primitive seasons, start their own clubs, pay their own dues, lease their own land so to speak, etc.

So IMO, I think people need to pause before they automatically assume traditionalists are being elitist or talking down their noses...traditionalists just want to preserve an era and could care less what other people want to shoot...but they do take umbrage when the inline influence begins to have negative impacts to the Harley-Davidson motorcycle club, it's future, it's leased land for primitive hunting, etc...

:m2c:
 
Rollingb, Ohio joe,
I'm okay now, the wife took my soap box away from me and told me if I couldn't play nice...

smokeydays
 
I understand what your saying, but I think we need to look at this another way.

We traditonalist are an elite group, no different from any other elite group. If you want to become one of us, then buy or build the proper firearms, tools, and equipment.

A person who buys a modern inline and camo clothing, and all the things they think they need to be comfortable on the hunt, can surely spend the same amount of money to become a traditionalist.

I will not turn anyone away who is willing to learn the traditional ways, but I'm not going to let them in my camp, or on my traditional firing line with a modern inline. That would be a slap in the face of all those who chose to walk the traditional path... :peace:

Well, actually I did make a reference to clothing... :haha:

Sorry if some of you took this as a slam, it was not said in that spirit. It was simply a means of comparison to show that either path will be costly.

As for being elite??? I trully believe that traditional muzzleloading folks are elite. They are constantly honing their skills, that is what makes them elite, and unique. :peace:
 
Does that mean that my synthetic stock Bobcat would cause me to get the cold shoulder? Think about the high school or college kid that always wanted to shoot black powder. I remember being dirt poor in college and scraping the $60 together to buy a plastic sidelock gun would have been a major expense. Your description there would put them out - at the very time that they had interest to come in.

I am only speaking for me here. My diatribe was based on a few months of lurking and reading all of the posts that were of interest to me. I have no idea what each person subscribes to, but was rather trying to give the flavor of what I have seen. If you objectively read the threads that questioned using Pyrodex, 777 or some of the other non-black powders (or even some of the black powders that aren't Goex or Swiss), you will see a similar animosity towards those products as many of the traditional firearms guys have towards the inlines.

I am not looking to cast stones here - far from it - I am offering a view from the outside. I would venture that some of the folks on the forum have become comfortable in the forum and their shooting/hunting parties - to the point that they have forgotten what it may look like to a neophyte that happens to stumble by with a modicrum of interest.

My perspective is not tainted by the political wranglings within NMLRA - I am not a member, never have been, and have never read one of their magazines or any other propoganda piece. My perspective is not tainted by a mentor that held any negative views about any other aspect of the sport - my father never fired the guns that we built, so he was as much of a Pilgrim as I am now - moreso since I HAVE shot them. Mine is as objective an opinion as I think that you will find.

I urge you (not just rollingb but rather everyone that has posted on this thread) to go back and read this as if you were a complete outsider. If you have a disinterested spouse, get them to read it and give their opinion. I think that if you step back, you will see that there is a clear chasm that needs to be eased. The inlines and traditionals CAN coexist.

As to the inline guy that came out to the traditional shoot, the offer of a loaner was a good first step. Inviting him to stay and watch a few rounds, compare a couple of shots and exhange some positive dialog may have prevented the ugly exchange at the meeting. Of course, he could have just been a jerk and nothing would appease him...
 
PorkChop you said, "The reality is that inlines can be a transitional weapon. If someone was sort of interested in black powder, but not sure that they want to buy all of the stuff to do it, the prepackaged inlines make it SOOO easy. Lets look at the math of it. At Wal Mart, you can buy a complete inline set - gun, powder, bullets, lube, etc for about $185. Complete instructions are included and since the gun looks a lot like the bolt action rifle that Joe Sixpack was using, it is not that difficult to get into the groove of shooting it."

There's some truth in what you say but not in all that you say. For one thing inlines are cheap to buy but are they cheap to shoot. Try getting inliners out to shoot at a monthly match. Most don't want to shoot their bullets up where I paid 50 cents a pound for my lead and I get 38 or 39 balls out of a pound.

I shoot real black powder because it's better less corrosive and cheaper. I get it through my club the powder I'm currently shooting is Swiss it cost me $8.50 a pound. It's gone up to $10.50 a pound now thankfully I bought several pounds at the cheaper price.

All this adds up to being more proficient with my weapon the more I shoot it the better I shoot. And I have competed against several inline shooters I beat them all soundly with my flintlock.

And it's not the men who shoot inlines that get the traditionalist goat as much as the fact that the DNR has opened up our seasons to the modern inline with a waterproof cap system and scopes. I say our season because we fought tooth and nail in my state to get a special ML season.

Here in WV as long as there is an open deer season there will be a ML season. Because we had to go to the legislative body to get our season. The WV Bowhunters Assoc. fought tooth and nail to prevent it because they thought we might cut into their special season.

I for one don't see any good coming from all the in fighting among hunters we have enough fighting to do to defeat the anti-hunters. They are happy to see us fighting amongst ourselves. Their objective is to divide and conquer.

YMH&OS, :redthumb:
Chuck an ex-inline owner!
 
First let me say thet Roundball is exactly correct!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Next,.... Smokeydays, and Pork Chop,.... Thank you for the loooooong posts!! :haha:...... OKAY,.... seriously now!! Those of us thet are "traditionalists" really appreciate yore comments, and questions.

Be assured, thet we are not the "hard nosed" "hard core" fellas you may have us mistake'n for, such as the "AMM" (tho I am a proud member of thet organization as well).

Both Ohio joe and I, understand yore initial confusion about cloths, powder, which rifles are/are not considered (at least by us) as "traditional", and etc.

We've even been ridiculed by inliners, because we drive our pickups to "traditional shoots" ("how" a rifle and vehicle can be "compared" is beyond me in this "day and age" :youcrazy: :haha:).

We as "traditionalist" try to stay as "loose" with our "interpitation" as we can, in order for "new" fellas (such as yoreselves) to easily git "started". Once a fella gits started, he can dive to any "depth" he feels comfortable with, in his search for actual "period correctness".

I'm do'n a lot of talk'n here for Ohio Joe, but I think he is in full agreement with me on this. (I'll know fer sure, if he scalps me :haha:)

YMHS
rollingb
 
rollingb,
I apologize if it seems this thread is polarizing views, that certianly is not my intent. I agree with you about specialty groups within the scope of muzzleloading and I truly appreciate how diverse those special interests can be. From muzzleloading cannons to precision long range rifle shooting. My God the possibilities are darn near endless with BP shooting.

I believe we are shooting ourselves in the foot(no pun intended) when anyone cast disparaging remarks on any one group or class of BP guns. Now I'm not saying you should embrace them all. As I stated earlier inlines aren't my cup of tea, probably never will either. What I believe is we should stand together and be willing to accept them into the fold or at the very least be indifferent to them. However when it comes to issues that could, and they often do, affect us all, we should turn to all of those specialty groups and be heard as one voice. Many different people, one common voice.

On the more individual issue, the future of BP sports. I go back to my original comment. We can't change the views on BP shooting overnite, we do this one kid, one family at a time. Teach them on whatever ignition system you favor, but in the end let them decide whats best for themselves and be glad that their in the sport.

Smokeydays
 
I'm do'n a lot of talk'n here for Ohio Joe, but I think he is in full agreement with me on this. (I'll know fer sure, if he scalps me :haha:)
YMHS
rollingb

You said it good, friend! :thumbsup:
 
Hey Porkchop,

You said, "My perspective is not tainted by the political wranglings within NMLRA - I am not a member, never have been, and have never read one of their magazines or any other propoganda piece. My perspective is not tainted by a mentor that held any negative views about any other aspect of the sport - my father never fired the guns that we built, so he was as much of a Pilgrim as I am now - moreso since I HAVE shot them. Mine is as objective an opinion as I think that you will find."

My question is if you "have never read one of their magazines or any other propaganda piece." What have you read that would make you think they are propaganda pieces. I don't think you've heard any of us speak that way about any magazines.

The fact that you aren't tainted as you say may mean there's hope for you yet. Please don't let our love for our sport turn you off most all of us started with cheap pieces and through a burning love and desire did not quit till we got the gun of our dreams. You can do the same if so inclined it's a matter of priorities!

I understand how you feel being on the outside looking in! I was there once also but I wanted in and I didn't quit till I got what I wanted. Like rollinb said about the Harley Davidson. A close friend of mine had a Honda 750 he painted it did all kinds of custom work to it but it was still just a Honda. He wasn't shunned but he himself knew he didn't fit in some places. Now some 30 years later he has a Harley and he's loving it to death. He's never been happier. Priorities man priorities!

YMH&OS, :redthumb:
Chuck
 
Huntinfool,.... "Well stated"!! :master: :applause:

Pork Chop,.... Yes, you will see experienced traditional shooters cuss synthetic powder,.... for the simple reason, thet it doesn't perform as well as real blackpowder, especialy in flintlocks.

No, the plastic stock on yore CVA Bobcat isn't "traditional",.... you probably already knew thet "in yore heart" tho. However, if I were you (and I wanted to use the Bobcat in "traditional" competition), I'd think about re-stocking it with wood.
Somewhers on this forum, ther is a "tread" about CVA Bobcats, and you will find posts from me ask'n wher I could git a couple of'em for my 2 grandsons. You will also see on thet "thread" thet my "intentions" were to re-stock them to "fullstock".

As with any sport, it's always wise to "check" things out before you buy.

This forum, is the best place on the "web" to git good honest answers to questions. I must admit tho, thet I often forgit,.... "not everone" knows me, and those thet don't,.... may mistake the "tone" in my web "voice". :: (and for thet, I'm sorry!!)

YMHS
rollingb
 
Any publication for any club or organization will have some level of propaganda to it. Nothing disparaging meant by that at all. I just put that there as a frame of reference. BTW, there have been threads on this forum that blasted the NMLRA magazine as pandering to the inline guys...

The Harley club reference does have some issues with it in my opinion. The Harley clubs that I have seen DO look down on "rice burners" in general. The same holds true in reverse though (kinda like inlines and traditionals).

Now, I tend to pick the out of the ordinary to interest me. I like WW1 aircraft. Not many folks out there that like those anymore. I have an affinity for old Datsun convertible sports cars. Talk about red headed step children! With my last name (Raper), I have learned to be rather thick skinned, so no fears about scaring me off just yet. :redthumb:

Oh yeah, I never have been one to say 3 words when 50 would do just as well...
 
Pork Chop,.... I would also like to add, thet.... I'd "rather pull my own teeth", than to tell a "new" fella (in this sport),.... thet his rifle doesn't meet the critera of "traditional"!!

YMHS
rollingb
 
"The Harley club reference does have some issues with it in my opinion. The Harley clubs that I have seen DO look down on "rice burners" in general. The same holds true in reverse though (kinda like inlines and traditionals)."

Yes they do and they make fun of them the name rice burners in itself makes fun of the fact that they are made in Japan.

I've seen the inline crowd say negative things about flintlocks and vice versa but they are two different creatures just like the Honda and the Harley. The F-16 and the bi-winged plane from WW1 No!

There will always be differences but we should have the right to assemble ourselves and have an association or club where we gather together with people of like minds. Just like you might wish to do if you owned a sopwith camel (SP).
If you belonged top a bi-plane club would you want some guy with an F16 saying man that ancient piece of manure ain't reliable and you guys should let me in your club!

YMH&OS,
Chuck
 
Do the BP clubs you belong to or are in your area allow inlines in normal club shoots? Just curious, we allow them at our club with stipulation that they use patched round ball...although we don't have too many that shoot them and I don't recall anybody winning any of the matches with them.

Smokeydays
 
I believe we are shooting ourselves in the foot(no pun intended) when anyone cast disparaging remarks on any one group or class of BP guns. Now I'm not saying you should embrace them all.

"Now I'm not saying you should embrace them all."

Well I'm not sure "wher" you draw the line, in regards to "what" you embrace.

........ but, I "drew" my line over 20 years ago, and have no intentions of "re-draw'n" it to include inlines.
They're do'n ther darndest to become "centerfires", so I'll let the NRA embrace'em!! (YES!!.... I am also an NRA member :haha:)

YMHS
rollingb
 
I've been reading all the posts here and I simply don't understand the jest of the whole thing!!!

To begin....I don't like inlines...I would throw one away if it were given to me. But, please understand ...it's the inline; NOT the person who owns one that I don't like!

For a "title", I consider myself a Traditionalist. But, even in "our" circle there are people whom I disagree with. Simply owning a flintlock or caplock and talkin' the talk , doesn't mean we are all clones. At certain events, we are sometimes"judged" (literally)on our clothes, camp, gun, even our hair and facial hair! We strive to as historically accurate in all aspects as possible. Sometimes these judges point out things that need to corrected in our personna. Sometimes they are right ;sometimes they are wrong. Why do we endure this? Love of history and heritage! There are many traditonalist who have never put on buckskins or knee breechs and have never slept on the ground. But they are knowledgable in the old ways of gunbuilding or horn smithing etc. Not all traditionalist eat bugs and live in the woods!

The main drawback to a lot of inline owners is ownership is as far as it goes. They could care less where the origin of muzzleloading came from or where it's going. Please note: I did not say all inline owners.If that's all they want ...fine! just don't come down on us because we go greater lengths.

If a gunclub had a range large enough to run several matches at once (Glock shooters, skeet, traditional muzzleloaders, high-powered rifles and inlines) I wouldnot walk across the street to watch the other matches. This does not make me an eleatist ...it just makes me a non-interested person in these other type of guns.

Noone would go to Cowboy six-shooter event and get mad if they were not allowed to use a glock with only 6 rounds in the magazine!They are smart enough to know there is a differance. But yet, we are called names when we say traditional only match, and an inliner is refused permission to shoot.

Can we all get along for the benefit of gun ownership in general? The government doesn't care if we argue with each other...they just look at numbers. How many guns are there and how can we eliminate them.
In my opinion, An inline is just an inline, but a traditional gun is heritage. To the government though , we are all just numbers! Point is; Our debates do not jeopardize the future of gun ownship...it's point; counter-point and should be taken as such. :peace:
 
At certain events, we are sometimes"judged" (literally)on our clothes, camp, gun, even our hair and facial hair! We strive to as historically accurate in all aspects as possible. Sometimes these judges point out things that need to corrected in our personna.

Thanks Longknife,.... Thet reminds me,... I know one fella in the "AMM" thet "pass'es muster" even tho he ain't gotta gun,.... he has a self-bow thet he made, and takes it to all our "camps".
When I first met this fella, I asked him,... "Wher's yore riflegun"?????.... he replied,.... "I lost it cross'n tha river ta git here"!!

....... so, like you say, the gun is only part of be'n "traditional" in some circles!! :haha:

I liked, and agree with everthin else you posted too!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

YMHS
rollingb
 
No Smokeydays they don't allow them. They have the classes set up percussion and flint. They have said if any show up that we'd create an inline class. But the truth of the matter is it's hard to find any inline shooters who actually shoot them on a regular basis.

The name of our club kind of scares them away. Mountaineer Flintlock Rifles Inc. although we do have a few percussion shooters in the club.

The projectiles they shoot for hunting are usually cost prohibitive. They don't use them for much but to kill an extra deer with. And most shoot them a couple of times before deer season and at deer then hang em up till next season. I know not all do but I talking the rule not the exception.

The ones that I've outshot were at informal competitions at the regular gun club or at the parking lot at the State owned "Primitive Weapons Only" wildlife management area.

A couple of guys started making fun of us shooting flintlocks so we challenged them to a lunch time match. We set up a target at 50 yards and had at it offhand. One guy was using a scope and the other fiber optic sights. They didn't seem to think it fair. They thought they were taking advantage of us because of their superior equipment.

They changed their minds when my buddy and I (he was also shooting a flintlock) were the only ones to hit the 12 ounce soda can! Also a couple of years ago I was working at the Putnam Co. Gun Club on sight in day just before Muzzleloader season.

You should've seen the look on the guys face when my friend brought back his target from 100 yards. It had a tight 2" group dead in the X ring the best group we saw all day and most of the inlines had scopes on them!

They thought we were fooling with them and that he didn't actually shoot that group with that rifle. So he let them walk out to post a new target with him. And he tore it up also! A good longrifle is hard to beat!

YMH&OS, :peace: :redthumb:
Chuck
 
To be honest, I have nothing against any rifle as long as it works when needed. But personally I am anxiously awaiting the TMA (Traditional Muzzleloaders Association). If there is anything I can do help that organization come to fruition I am willing!!!
 
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