general muzzleloading questions

[Bender]

ok, here we go with my first post, not including my "introduction" post.

I want to get into the hobby. I just bought a used T/C Hawken (made in early 1970s) for my son for xmas, .50 cal.

I'd like to have some shootin' contests with my son, so I'd like to get myself something also. I'm on a budget, so I'm looking at items

 

[gmww]

1. who makes Cabela's rifles?

I'll just answer #1. Cabelas Hawkens are made by Investarms. They are good guns for the money. It was my first and I still own it. :thumbsup:

However, you might consider getting another T/C Hawkens. They are good guns!

 

If money is an issue, I'd go for a thompson Center Hawken. It's a decent rifle for the money. And, Thompson Center backs thier products up.

 

[Trench]

My first muzzleloader was a Traditions Hawken because of the price. There are warnings on the barrel like "Read your manual" but nothing to excess.
As far as PC, as I understand, none of the commercially sold "Hawkens" really look anything like an original. More knowledgable folks here feel the Lyman GPR is one of the closest in resembling an actual period Hawken.
If you're looking for a flintlock, then you might want to shy away from the Traditions. Not a lot of time or money went in to the lock. I replaced mine with one from L&R. I can't comment on the percussion lock. I have no qualms about the barrel and I'm currently grouping 2.5 inches at 100 yds with a PRB.
Let us know what you finally get!!

 

[Bender]

well, the used T/C Hawken I am buying (from my shooting buddy, who bought it in early 1970s) is in beautiful shape. I am buying it for $275 with all the accessories, a nice soft case, etc.

It's for my son for xmas. I think he would prefer to have something "his own", in other words, I wouldn't want to buy myself the same thing as I'm buying him. I don't mind something "not as nice", that way he can be proud of his... as in "mines better".

Do all muzzleloaders engrave warnings and instructions all over the place...? It's kind of a turn-off when you are trying to look traditional. That's the only thing I didn't like about the lyman GPR.

 

[Bender]

I guess I should start with a percussion rifle. Maybe a flint once I get farther into the hobby.

 

[AeroncaTAL]

Bender,
Welcome to the forum! IMHO, you cannot go wrong with either a Lyman GPR or a TC Hawken, both are excellent rifles. I built a .54 GPR from the Lyman kit (it was my first muzzleloader) and am very happy with it. I bought my son a .45 TC Hawken from a Pawn Shop and am impressed with the quality. We took it out to the range right after we bought it and the first two rounds went into the black at 50 yds. Thompson also has a lifetime warranty for all of their factory guns. As far as all the warnings on the barrels, you are not going to get away from that, so better learn to live with it, I guess.
Scott

 

[Bender]

yeah, I'm leaning towards the GPR so far. I can't stand the warnings & stuff carved all over the barrel though.

That's why I was impressed withe the uberti revolvers I have looked at. They don't put that stuff on their guns. I think I remember they may have had "black powder only" and the company name under the barrel, hidden by the loading lever. The way it should be...

Anyway, thanks. after I buy something I'm sure I'll have some loading & shooting questions.

 

[FPDoc]

I have a .50 Cabelas Hawken percussion and a .54 GPR flint. Both are made by Investarms of Italy. I don't expect I'll ever sell either. I have heard of guys draw-filing the writing off of the barrel to make them more traditional in apearence up close. I will probably just quit reading it and concentrate on the shooting part. The TC has a good reputation.

 

[Old40Rod]

I can't stand the warnings & stuff carved all over the barrel

Get a GPR kit, file off what you don't want and brown the barrel.

I have a .50 GPR and 2 .54 Cabela's hawkens. You can't go wrong with either choice, IMHO. The hawkens are shorter and 1:48 twist, the GPR 1:60. The standard sights on the Cabela's hawkens are more modern than the GPR, but sights can be changed. Some people don't like the buttplates on the GPR, as they are a bit more curved than the hawkens... but I don't have any problem with mine.

The GPR and Cabela's are better than the Traditions hawkens as far as fit and finish, but they are more expensive. The Traditions are decent shooters. You get what you pay for.

All that being said, I think most people would agree that the TC Hawkens are probably the best overall buy of the bunch among off the shelf rifles. They give you everything that you get with the Cabela's hawken, and a lifetime warranty to boot.

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the forum.
You have a lot of questions but, that's what were here for.

I'll give my opinion (for what it's worth) and let the others pounce on me when I'm off base.


1. who makes Cabela's rifles?
Cabela's rifles are made by Interarms in Italy. They are the same folks who make the Lyman GPR and their rifles are good quality guns.

2. is Traditions a quality company, and why are they a lot cheaper than other companies? Are they PC for the most part?
Traditions imports their guns from Spain. The company who makes them used to sell their guns to CVA when CVA was importing sidelock style guns. In my opinion, the Spanish guns quality is not quite as good as the Italian produced guns.

PC. None of the rifles produced by any of the commercial suppliers are good reproductions of a Hawken or some of the other Plains rifles however there were some guns built in California in the 1850-1870s that looked quite a bit like the TC Hawken and similar rifles. As was said, the GPR comes about as close as any of them but it really isn't an accurate reproduction of the heavy barreled Plains rifles.

I have held a Lyman GPR in my hands, it seemed very nice, but I was very turned off by all the instructions and warnings engraved on the barrel.
All of the markings will be found on just about all of the currently produced rifles. If you can find a used, older rifle in good condition, it won't have all of this writing on it.

3. does Traditions engrave warnings and instructions all over their barrels like Lyman?
Yes. See number 2. If you don't mind refinishing the barrel you can always draw file the flats to remove the markings and then Brown the metal. Browning is more PC than blueing for a plains rifle anyway.

Replica pistol questions:

4. I have looked at Uberti replicas at local stores, they seem very nice! I notice that many online stores sell "uberti, imported by Cimarron" replicas. What's the diff between these and the Ubertis I see in stores? Do they have "Cimarron Firearms" engraved on them?
It is said that Cimarron sends a representive to Uberti's factory and hand selects the best of the bunch to sell. I believe the Cimarron name is marked on the barrels.

Hope this helps you out and if it doesn't, feel free to ask more questions.
zonie

 

[paulvallandigham]

Uberti does put the warning on those guns, because they are made in Italy, and are not subject to our USA Product Liability laws. The guns made by T/C are made here in the USA. Another good reason to choose a T/C, in my way of thinking. U.S. Manufacturers are held to strict liability standard for their products, and the warnings on the flats are the only way they can manufacture and sell the guns to the public without charging 5 times as much as the gun should cost you. Before the early 1960s, we had no Strict Liability/ Products liability laws in this country. They were created by our Courts, and finally state legislatures to provide basic safety protections for the benefit of the U.S. consumer. Nothing is free.

 

[shootemup]

Hi Bender and welcome to the forum,

If you want something a little different from your son's gun but like the quality of the T/C, consider a T/C Renegade. It's really the same gun but with a different look. No brass - the Renegades are utilitarian hunting guns. They can usually be had for $200 or less on the auction sites like Gun Broker or Auction Arms.

If you decide later that you would like the guns to look more pc, Pecatonica and Track of the Wolf both offer "drop-in" stocks that you finish like a kit - the stocks make the guns look more like real Hawkens, might make a fun project with your boy.

Good luck with it, whatever you decide. You've made a great choice for something to do with your son, by the way, don't know how old he is but if he is very young you can use lighter loads and always control the amount of kick he experiences. Can help to keep him from being afraid to shoot...

I did this with my son, got him a smoothbore barrel for his Renegade and told him he could go squirrel hunting when he got to a load powerful enough to shoot through a vegetable (not a soda) can. He poked through at 40 grains and settled on 45 with about 70 grains volume equivalent of shot - took his first couple of squirrels with that load, became a regular animal with a muzzleloader and four years later has taken a couple of deer with it (and a stiffer roundball load)...
:hatsoff:
Spot

 

[Bender]

My son is 9, but almost 10. We have been shooting together for a while now, and he has shot most of my milsurps. He does not like the recoil of 8mm and 30-06, but the rest of my stuff he is fine with.

I have no idea what the recoil of T/C Hawken that I bought will be like. I am going shooting with the Hawken this sunday with my buddy who sold it to me. He is going to go over loading and shooting it with me. Back in the day, he used to hunt with it with real BP, not the subs that we have today. I bought a pound of Triple 7 FFg for us to try. We are going to try some loads of 50gr and 60gr to see if that would be OK for my son to shoot, after I give it to him for xmas.

edit: looks like all my questions were answered, thanks! I call those instructions and legal blurbs on the barrels part of the "Dumbing Down of America", but it is also part of the grand scheme of "CYA" by all the companies, as mentioned by all of you.

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Howdy. All the above plus start with round ball and light loads. It will be fun with less recoil. Cheaper also. Glad to see you getting your son involved. Good shooting!.

 

[Coot]

I always thought that the Thompson-Center Senicas were nice guns - same quality as the T-C Hawken is a bit smaller & lighter package. If your son is just 9-10 & finds the recoil of an 8mm a bit much, he might like the fit & recoil of a .36 Senica better than a .50 Hawken. (The .45 Senica will have a recoil similar to the .50 Hawken due to the Senica's lighter weight.) Only downside to the .36 Senica is if you want to go after deer. Glad you are interested & that you son is too! Good shooting.

 

[arquebus]

With light loads & roundballs you're son should be fine with that .50, start him off with about 40gns of powder (2Fg or 3Fg).

 

[Zonie]

Generally speaking, all black powder guns kick differently than the smokeless guns.
Because the powder burns at a slower rate, it accelerates the ball/bullet at a slower more consistent rate so it feels like a hard push rather than a sharp kick.
Even with fairly heavy loads the recoil is very manageable and it takes a very stout load to make a patched roundball kick hard enough to bother most shooters.

IMO, a .50 cal muzzleloader shooting a patched roundball over 85 grains of powder will kick like a very gentle .30-30 while providing enough power to easily take a deer at ranges out to 100 yards.
zonie

 

[Bender]

well, that sounds good. My son has shot a 30-30 (not mine) and it didn't bother him. I did read that BP is a "slower" recoil than the sharp crack of smokeless. However, I also read that triple 7 has a sharper recoil than BP or pyrodex...

Guess I'll find out sunday morning when I go shooting.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Welcome to the MLF :hatsoff: I will bet good money your .50 W/PRB will group tighter with about 70-80 grs. 3F, maybe litle less. Good luck.