I have a T/C Hawken percussion, I have tried shooting maxi-ball out of it but they are low even after the sight is adjusted as far as it will go. I have used over powder wads, lubed felt wads, and just plain lubed maxi ball. Any advice on how to get my groups up? by the way this was at 25 yards. I can get a good group out to 50 yards with 80gr of FFFg goex .015 ticking and moose snot, but cant hit the paper at 100.
Getting my rifle to group with maxi-balls
- Thread starter lorren68
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It is going to depend on your rifle's tiwst rate as well as the depth of the rifling to get great accuracy but for now I would stick with using the lubed wads and increase the powder charge to see if you can get them hitting higher, not to exceed maximum for your rifle. Also try some lighter conicals such as the Lee REAL bullet.
Rat Trapper
62 Cal.
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Increase your powder charge!
longcruise
70 Cal.
Install a lower front sight. You can find them on TOW. Measure the height of your present front blade or bead and order the next one shorter.
Be sure to order the correct dovetail size.
Be sure to order the correct dovetail size.
I should have written that the group at 50 yards is with a .490 rb. The rifle is a 1:48 twist. I am begining to get really frustrated with not being able to get a good group beyond 50 yards. I have decided I dont want to fool with the maxiballs any moore(too much $$$$ and heavy recoil) I would love to find a slow twist roundball barrel for the gun, but I have no idea what I would have to order, unless I find one used for sale.
That barrel will group good with roundballs, with the twist it has. :idunno: It may not be the best twist for roundballs, but it will do it if you have the patience to work out the loads. You just need to find the right combo & powder charge for it. Documentation or targets, and a good bench wit sand bags is a must, IMHO.
Talk to Roundball... He shot them for 30 years with success.
Keith Lisle
Talk to Roundball... He shot them for 30 years with success.
Keith Lisle
I agree with birddog 6 the 1/48 will shoot PRB,you'll just need to fiddle a bit with it,I have several TC's and shoot PRB in all of them (except the Omega)some of them shot right off with good groups and some had to be fiddled with a good bit. Now by and large all of them will shoot better than they did with conicals,this includes 32,36,45,50,54 and 58 cal rifles
Good Luck
Good Luck
paulvallandigham
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To find good groups at 100 yds, READ your spent patches, after each shot.
You may need to use the tighter, .495" dia. ball for the longer ranges.
You may need to use a thicker patch material, with that .490" than you are currently using.
You may need to use a different lube on your patch with either ball diameter.
You may need to change your cleaning and loading technique to get smaller groups at the longer range.
You may need to use an OP wad as a firewall to protect your patch, to get good groups out at 100 yds.
We ask too much ( IMHO) of patches, trying to be "traditional", when we don't have the shooting and woodsmanship skills to stalk close to game before taking a shot like our ancestors did. A patch is asked to:
1. Grab the ball;
2. Impart the spin of the rifling to the ball;
3. Protect the lands from leading ;
4. Act as a Gas Seal to keep the hot gases from cutting the lead ball and making it unstable in flight; and
5. Center the ball in the barrel.
I think the very least that a shooter can do is find another way to seal those gases, so that you get the same "Compression" on the powder to reduce the Standard Deviation of Velocity from shot to shot. Along the way, you will also find that the greater amount of compression, the higher the pressure and heat, and the more efficiently your powder burns.
You may get a bit more velocity also, compared to shooting the same volume powder charge w/o the firewall( OP wad). If you do, you can consider reducing- you may have to do this!-- the powder charge to get the Ball to hit the same POI as you had when you didn't use the OP wad. Saving a little powder to get the same performance, but smaller groups at longer ranges is not such a BAD trade-off, is it? :shocked2:
:surrender: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
You may need to use the tighter, .495" dia. ball for the longer ranges.
You may need to use a thicker patch material, with that .490" than you are currently using.
You may need to use a different lube on your patch with either ball diameter.
You may need to change your cleaning and loading technique to get smaller groups at the longer range.
You may need to use an OP wad as a firewall to protect your patch, to get good groups out at 100 yds.
We ask too much ( IMHO) of patches, trying to be "traditional", when we don't have the shooting and woodsmanship skills to stalk close to game before taking a shot like our ancestors did. A patch is asked to:
1. Grab the ball;
2. Impart the spin of the rifling to the ball;
3. Protect the lands from leading ;
4. Act as a Gas Seal to keep the hot gases from cutting the lead ball and making it unstable in flight; and
5. Center the ball in the barrel.
I think the very least that a shooter can do is find another way to seal those gases, so that you get the same "Compression" on the powder to reduce the Standard Deviation of Velocity from shot to shot. Along the way, you will also find that the greater amount of compression, the higher the pressure and heat, and the more efficiently your powder burns.
You may get a bit more velocity also, compared to shooting the same volume powder charge w/o the firewall( OP wad). If you do, you can consider reducing- you may have to do this!-- the powder charge to get the Ball to hit the same POI as you had when you didn't use the OP wad. Saving a little powder to get the same performance, but smaller groups at longer ranges is not such a BAD trade-off, is it? :shocked2:
:surrender: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:I started out using a large cardboard target at 25 yards, I shot groups starting with 50gr of powder, I increased the charge by 5gr until the groups came together then opened up, and I went back to the smallest group. I have since tried ffg powder, 777 powder, and pyrodex, I stayed with FFFg goex bp. I have tried and overpowder card, a lubed felt wad, blue jean denium I had to drive down the barrel to start. I collect some of my patches every shooting session and at the start they were torn all to pieces, but now I could pick them up and reuse them. I can shoot a ragged hole from the bench at 25 yards and a 3-4 inch group at 50, but at 100 my shots are always low and off the paper. I have adjusted my sight all the way up and still not on paper. I am working on getting a brass blade front sight and a buckhorn rear non adjustable, so If I need to raise the group I will be able to file the front down. With The .015 patching I am using I have to whack the short starter to get it in the muzzle, I then cut the strip as close to the mussle as possible, it then takes firm pressure to seat the ball/patch combo. I have tried moose snot, bore butter, and ballistol for lube. I am at a loss as to where to go now.
rafterob
62 Cal.
If he is using patches with a maxi-ball, that could be his problem :wink:
paulvallandigham
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If you have not recovered any of the bullets fired out at 100 yds( its worth digging for them) so you can inspect the base of the bullets, you may be missing the cause of the inaccuracy. And, if you don't use a chronograph to tell you the SDV for your bullets, again you may be missing the cause of the problems.
A Groove diameter, or larger thick OP wad serves as a firewall, to protect the bullet's BASE, and its sides from being cut by gases. Both affect down range performance dramatically. And, both problems will show up after the bullet has dropped down through the Transonic Zone somewhere between 50 and 100 yds.
The idea of the maxi-ball was to provide an almost Bore diameter( Land to Land) diameter to the bottom band, and subsequent bands on the bullet, while leaving the Driving Band, at the middle of the bullet, below the ogive, a bit larger, somewhere between the bore diameter and average groove diameter. The idea is that the lower bands will "Center" the bullet in the muzzle, while the upper, "driving" band, will be scored by the lands when you give the short starter a good "whack" with the butt of your hand. Those scores then Lock the bullet in the rifling, so that the bullet does not bend or "yaw" in the barrel, and they then shoot consistently straight when the gun is fired.
That is how they were designed to function. However, all this assumes that the shooter knows this, and is using a good loading technique and properly designed short starter to seat the bullet in the muzzle before driving it down on the powder. It also assumes that there is NO Looseness in the barrel where the bullet sits on the powder charge, so that the bullet does not shift forward at any time.
If the shooter manages to load that bullet "crooked", no amount of design is going to stabilize it at longer ranges.
If the bullet shifts in the barrel off the powder charge, even a little bit, it lengthens the portion of the barrel where the powder burns, lowering the pressure and temperature of the powder, so that the bullet will drop faster, because it leaves the barrel slower! Its very important to mark your ramrod so that you load to the "mark" every time. Its also important for consistent MV that you clean the barrel between shots, so that crud does not build up behind the bullet, and the same volume of powder now requires the bullet to seat a bit further out in the barrel.
My suggestion, based on my own experiences, is to try a 1/4" thick OP wad made of vegetable fiber, PROVIDED that the OP wad is the diameter, or slightly larger than your groove diameter. This will seal gases from blowing by the OP wad, and cutting your bullet's sides. Any wad will serve as a firewall and protect the base of the bullet.
Finally, check the crown on the muzzle to make sure its square to the BORE- not the outside flats! If you don't know how to do this, take the gun to a competent BP Gunsmith( altho most good general gunsmiths should be able to do this for you, too.) You don't want gases escaping behind one side of the bullet( down one groove before the others) ahead of the others, at the muzzle as the bullet leaves the "crown", as that will cause the bullet to yaw, or to fly off to a different POI. Unless you know what you are looking at, and for, it may not be perceived by the average shooter on a 50 yd. target, or it may be ignored as being caused by something else.
My final thought is that the shape of the "nose" of your short starter needs to match, and center the shape of the "nose" of your bullet, well . Using a round ball short starter to seat a flat nosed bullet only distorts the shape of the nose of the bullet, an that is not going to happen consistently with each bullet. There will be variances between the alloys used in each bullet, and in the amount of force in the blow given the short starter with different bullets. Misshaping the bullet's nose does not contribute much to accuracy the longer the range. The Change in POI increases as the bullet slows, allowing Drag to affects its flight path through the air.
A Groove diameter, or larger thick OP wad serves as a firewall, to protect the bullet's BASE, and its sides from being cut by gases. Both affect down range performance dramatically. And, both problems will show up after the bullet has dropped down through the Transonic Zone somewhere between 50 and 100 yds.
The idea of the maxi-ball was to provide an almost Bore diameter( Land to Land) diameter to the bottom band, and subsequent bands on the bullet, while leaving the Driving Band, at the middle of the bullet, below the ogive, a bit larger, somewhere between the bore diameter and average groove diameter. The idea is that the lower bands will "Center" the bullet in the muzzle, while the upper, "driving" band, will be scored by the lands when you give the short starter a good "whack" with the butt of your hand. Those scores then Lock the bullet in the rifling, so that the bullet does not bend or "yaw" in the barrel, and they then shoot consistently straight when the gun is fired.
That is how they were designed to function. However, all this assumes that the shooter knows this, and is using a good loading technique and properly designed short starter to seat the bullet in the muzzle before driving it down on the powder. It also assumes that there is NO Looseness in the barrel where the bullet sits on the powder charge, so that the bullet does not shift forward at any time.
If the shooter manages to load that bullet "crooked", no amount of design is going to stabilize it at longer ranges.
If the bullet shifts in the barrel off the powder charge, even a little bit, it lengthens the portion of the barrel where the powder burns, lowering the pressure and temperature of the powder, so that the bullet will drop faster, because it leaves the barrel slower! Its very important to mark your ramrod so that you load to the "mark" every time. Its also important for consistent MV that you clean the barrel between shots, so that crud does not build up behind the bullet, and the same volume of powder now requires the bullet to seat a bit further out in the barrel.
My suggestion, based on my own experiences, is to try a 1/4" thick OP wad made of vegetable fiber, PROVIDED that the OP wad is the diameter, or slightly larger than your groove diameter. This will seal gases from blowing by the OP wad, and cutting your bullet's sides. Any wad will serve as a firewall and protect the base of the bullet.
Finally, check the crown on the muzzle to make sure its square to the BORE- not the outside flats! If you don't know how to do this, take the gun to a competent BP Gunsmith( altho most good general gunsmiths should be able to do this for you, too.) You don't want gases escaping behind one side of the bullet( down one groove before the others) ahead of the others, at the muzzle as the bullet leaves the "crown", as that will cause the bullet to yaw, or to fly off to a different POI. Unless you know what you are looking at, and for, it may not be perceived by the average shooter on a 50 yd. target, or it may be ignored as being caused by something else.
My final thought is that the shape of the "nose" of your short starter needs to match, and center the shape of the "nose" of your bullet, well . Using a round ball short starter to seat a flat nosed bullet only distorts the shape of the nose of the bullet, an that is not going to happen consistently with each bullet. There will be variances between the alloys used in each bullet, and in the amount of force in the blow given the short starter with different bullets. Misshaping the bullet's nose does not contribute much to accuracy the longer the range. The Change in POI increases as the bullet slows, allowing Drag to affects its flight path through the air.
longcruise
70 Cal.
Where is your point of impact (poi) relative to your point of aim (POA) at 50 yards? This is kinda critical to analyzing your problem. If they are hitting below your poa, they are going to be diving much lower at 100. If you are hitting dead on poa at 50 yards, you will be over five inches low at 100! If your poi is lower than your poa at 50, you can add that amount to the five inches! :shocked2:
If the above is going on, then you are back to the lower front sight blade to address the problem. If your groups are consistently 5 inches at 50, they are going to go 10 inches or better at 100, so that is not real great if shot from the bench. If shot off hand, not so bad.
Just a couple of observations on your shooting set up. I have been shooting a .50 TC for about 35 years. I've had some great combos that shot well and some poor ones that did not. Based on that, I'm going to suggest that 80 grains of 3f might be more than you need and could be detrimental to accuracy from the 1/48 twist. With .490 and .495 balls along with a good tight and tough patch, my gun kept coming back to 70 grains of 2f. It killed a good many deer loaded as such, so I don't think you need to worry about losing power.
We talk about patch thickness a lot on this board, but the fact is thicker is not always tougher. I have some 12 oz duck that holds together nicely and another piece of 12 oz that is a different brand and it does not hold up so well.
But, you mentioned that your patches are holding together now, so that is probably not the problem. Trying some .495 balls might be productive since they will make a good patch a bit tighter.
Good decision on the maxi balls! :thumbsup:
Thanks to all for the replies. I now have lots to think about before I go back to the range. I am going to start over from the begining, as I am working on getting some primitive sights for the gun. I just had a thought the other day I was hunting and my sight base was loose!!!!!!!!!!! This was after my last range session!!!!! I cant belive I just thought of this!!! If the base was moving around no wonder I could not group my shots!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Had the same problem with the Maxi's earlier this year. Said screw it and went with patched round balls. My load: 90GR. FFG Goex, dry patch on top of powder, .015 pillow tick patch lubed with T/C bore butter, Hornady .490 ball. Rear site is approximately in the middle of the elevation range. Shoots 2" high at 50yds, 2" low at 100yds dead center vertically. Groups are O.K.I may try the .018 patches next. I too have looked at the Green MTN. .54 cal roundball barrel for the T/C, but that will have to wait. For whitetails,I dont feel undergunned at all. I have confidence in this load. Hope this helps. Good luck.
