GOEX vs. Swiss

[Semisane]

I’ve always been a GOEX guy. I hardly ever shoot any of the black powder subs. Also, I’ve never tried Swiss black powder even though I’ve seen numerous reports that it produces better accuracy, is cleaner burning and load for load yields higher and more consistent velocities than GOEX.

So after many years of resisting the lure of Swiss I decided to get some and see for myself. This is a report of my side-by-side comparison of Swiss and GOEX in the 2F and 3F granulations of each.

For this exercise I chose to use my TC Renegade with a .45 caliber 1:30” twist Green Mountain barrel and shoot full bore conicals. I chose this gun and bullet for three reasons; the gun wears a Simmons 4X ProDiamond shotgun scope to keep aiming errors to a minimum, it’s already zeroed in for the load I planned to shoot, and I’ve shot the gun and bullet enough to know what kind of accuracy can be expected.

I installed a new AMPCO nipple at the beginning the shooting session and followed the following procedures for the test:

1. Four targets were shot at 100 yards, with five shots on each target and a different powder used for each target. All shots were over a chronograph 10 feet from the muzzle.

2. The first shot on each target was from a cold clean barrel with a three to five minute cooling period between each of the following four shots.

3. The bore was wiped between each shot with both sides of a fresh patch lightly moistened with 91% Isopropyl alcohol - one stroke down and up with each side. The bore was fully cleaned between targets.

4. For the first shot on each target, the bullet was seated until it just touched the powder. Then a stop collar on the loading rod was locked in place 1/8” above the muzzle and the load compressed that one-eighth inch. The stop collar remained locked in that position for the following four shots to assure the consistent load compression. The stop collar was reset in this manner for each target.

5. Pre-weighed powder charges of 85 grains actual weight were used.

6. The bullets were flat nose conicals cast from pure soft lead then sized and lubed to .452 diameter. They were weight sorted to assure that all were between 464.0 and 464.5 grains, and inspected to assure all had undamaged bases with sharp corners.

7. A 1/2” diameter 1/8” thick unlubed wool wad was used under the base of the bullets.

8. Winchester #11 magnum percussion caps from the same tin were used.

9. Shots were from a bench using a Caldwell shooting rest under the foreend and a rabbit ear bag under the butt stock.

Here are the charges ready to be shot.

Here’s the shooting bench and range.

Here are the four targets.

Here are the cleaning patches that were used to wipe the bore between the fourth and fifth shot with each powder.

And here’s a summary of the results.

You may draw your own conclusions. It’s pretty clear that Swiss produces significantly higher velocities. I didn’t find a noticeable difference with respect to the degree of fouling produced by the two powders. However, that may be because I was wiping the bore between each shot. Results may be different with a long shot string without wiping. I’ll never know because I always wipe between shots.

With respect to accuracy potential, I found no significant difference between the two powders – at least not within my shooting ability or with this particular bullet and load. One day I’ll try a similar side-by-side comparison with patched balls in my .54 Great Plains flintlock.

I’ll likely be a GOEX guy forever. I like the stuff and I like supporting an American company.

 

[8 BORE]

Goex is best

 

[Rodd Boyer]

I'd be interested in your GPR test.... I bounce back and forth between olde eynsford and swiss..... I did win a pound of Schuetzen at a bp shoot a few months ago. Reckon I'll see how it works.

Thanks for sharing,
Rodd

 

[Grumpa]

All of my experience is with - what we called, in my day, "Garryowen". I have yet to try Swiss. I fully expect someone here to come along with their own figures, showing opposite results in THEIR gun, using THEIR loads. Such is the nature of the "science" of ballistics. Each gun is/can be a law unto itself. It will be argued that "Swiss is more powerful than Goex", and "3F is more powerful than 2F", therefore "the charges should have been adjusted accordingly".

It all boils down to finding the right load/combination for YOUR gun.

That being said, your experiment is certainly of interest. Thank you for sharing your experience and effort.

Let the Games begin.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[smo]

That seems odd to me that the ffg Goex shots grouped higher that any of the fffg ....

Even though the ffg Goex produced a lower velocity.

I would have expected the opposite results ...

Great test , Thanks for posting.

 

[FishDFly]

I have noticed at State shoots and National shoots, Goex is the most common found among the shooters.

 

[8 BORE]

All 3 brands are good.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I have also "always been a Goex guy". Late last summer I replaced the rear sight on a .54 percussion Hawken and sighted in using Swiss FF. Grafs was out of stock on Swiss and when I ran out I switched back to Goex FF that I had on hand. I was then surprised to see a full six inch drop in point of impact at 100 yards. I was puzzled but I decided to hold off on making any sight changes until I could get more of the Swiss powder. As soon as it became available again I ordered some FF and FFF for further testing. Sure enough, my shots came right back into the bull with the Swiss powder. In addition, my Hawken sight has an elevation bar and previously ( using Goex ) I had to raise it up one notch when changing from 50 to 100 yards. With the Swiss powder I don't have to change the sight setting. In my gun, it shoots flatter. I'll be doing more testing when the snow clears but as things now stand I plan to use Swiss in my rifles.

First shot at 100 after switching back to Swiss.

 

[Eutycus]

Just now thumbed my way to the bottom of this thread, it'll make for some interesting reading tonight. I've never used anything but Pyrodex and am pretty much satisfied. Now I just may try something differant. I sort of had it narrowed down to these two products. Unless I'm otherwise persuaded by members input, availability in my neighborhood and cost will determine which one.

 

[Semisane]

That seems odd to me that the ffg Goex shots grouped higher that any of the fffg ....

Even though the ffg Goex produced a lower velocity.

I would have expected the opposite results ...

Great test , Thanks for posting.

There's a back story on that smo. The gun was sighted in to be 1" high at 100 yards with 85 grains GOEX FFg and that bullet. That first target was pretty much what I expected. But when I shot the first shot on the second target with 85 grains Swiss FFg, the bullet went two inches over the top of the target. I adjusted the scope eight inches down, cleaned the barrel, and started over with the second target. No adjustments were made after that.

 

[rodwha]

I’ve always been a GOEX guy. I hardly ever shoot any of the black powder subs. Also, I’ve never tried Swiss black powder even though I’ve seen numerous reports that it produces better accuracy, is cleaner burning and load for load yields higher and more consistent velocities than GOEX.

So after many years of resisting the lure of Swiss I decided to get some and see for myself. This is a report of my side-by-side comparison of Swiss and GOEX in the 2F and 3F granulations of each.

For this exercise I chose to use my TC Renegade with a .45 caliber 1:30” twist Green Mountain barrel and shoot full bore conicals. I chose this gun and bullet for three reasons; the gun wears a Simmons 4X ProDiamond shotgun scope to keep aiming errors to a minimum, it’s already zeroed in for the load I planned to shoot, and I’ve shot the gun and bullet enough to know what kind of accuracy can be expected.

I installed a new AMPCO nipple at the beginning the shooting session and followed the following procedures for the test:

1. Four targets were shot at 100 yards, with five shots on each target and a different powder used for each target. All shots were over a chronograph 10 feet from the muzzle.

2. The first shot on each target was from a cold clean barrel with a three to five minute cooling period between each of the following four shots.

3. The bore was wiped between each shot with both sides of a fresh patch lightly moistened with 91% Isopropyl alcohol - one stroke down and up with each side. The bore was fully cleaned between targets.

4. For the first shot on each target, the bullet was seated until it just touched the powder. Then a stop collar on the loading rod was locked in place 1/8” above the muzzle and the load compressed that one-eighth inch. The stop collar remained locked in that position for the following four shots to assure the consistent load compression. The stop collar was reset in this manner for each target.

5. Pre-weighed powder charges of 85 grains actual weight were used.

6. The bullets were flat nose conicals cast from pure soft lead then sized and lubed to .452 diameter. They were weight sorted to assure that all were between 464.0 and 464.5 grains, and inspected to assure all had undamaged bases with sharp corners.

7. A 1/2” diameter 1/8” thick unlubed wool wad was used under the base of the bullets.

8. Winchester #11 magnum percussion caps from the same tin were used.

9. Shots were from a bench using a Caldwell shooting rest under the foreend and a rabbit ear bag under the butt stock.

Here are the charges ready to be shot.

Here’s the shooting bench and range.

Here are the four targets.

Here are the cleaning patches that were used to wipe the bore between the fourth and fifth shot with each powder.

And here’s a summary of the results.

You may draw your own conclusions. It’s pretty clear that Swiss produces significantly higher velocities. I didn’t find a noticeable difference with respect to the degree of fouling produced by the two powders. However, that may be because I was wiping the bore between each shot. Results may be different with a long shot string without wiping. I’ll never know because I always wipe between shots.

With respect to accuracy potential, I found no significant difference between the two powders – at least not within my shooting ability or with this particular bullet and load. One day I’ll try a similar side-by-side comparison with patched balls in my .54 Great Plains flintlock.

I’ll likely be a GOEX guy forever. I like the stuff and I like supporting an American company.

Very interesting! Thanks for going about testing these and sharing your results!

 

[TFoley]

Sadly, GOEX is a 'far country' for us here in UK. It's Swiss of whatever grade, or the products of Henry Krank, a very large, mostly traditional firearms dealer who specialises in Pedersoli and Uberti products, all the paraphernalia that goes along with them, and antiques for shooting or collecting. It's fair to say that the company is THE premier BP centre in UK. A visit there without the need for a droll collection cloth is simply not possible.

I shoot the Swiss stuff, although it is almost double the price of HK's concoction, because I literally get a better bang for my buck. An 80gr load of HK's FFg can be replicated on the target by 70gr of a similar grade of Swiss, and it's somewhat cleaner too, leaving only a kind of flakey residue.

In my revolver, it's 30gr and 25gr respectively. Same POA and same POI.

I can't say any more as I simply don't have the experience to do so.

 

[smo]

There's a back story on that smo. The gun was sighted in to be 1" high at 100 yards with 85 grains GOEX FFg and that bullet. That first target was pretty much what I expected. But when I shot the first shot on the second target with 85 grains Swiss FFg, the bullet went two inches over the top of the target. I adjusted the scope eight inches down, cleaned the barrel, and started over with the second target. No adjustments were made after that.

Thanks for the explanation Semisane.

I knew something just didn’t look right with the targets.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Congrats for conducting that tedious experiment. The results are interesting but not earth shaking. You do, at least to my satisfaction, prove Swiss is a bit 'hotter' than Goex but not to the extreme. I'll be working up loads for my new rifle soon and will keep you tests in mind. I have a good supply of Swiss but have never used it. This will go into a .50 cal. flinter.

 

[hanshi]

Performance of any powder depends more on the specific gun than on other characteristics of the powder. Swiss is costly. Does one already get excellent performance with the powder one is currently using? To some a 3% improvement in velocity, accuracy and uniformity means a lot, with higher powder prices meaning less. Others are quite satisfied without having to pay more $$ for little to no improvement.

 

[rodwha]

Performance of any powder depends more on the specific gun than on other characteristics of the powder. Swiss is costly. Does one already get excellent performance with the powder one is currently using? To some a 3% improvement in velocity, accuracy and uniformity means a lot, with higher powder prices meaning less. Others are quite satisfied without having to pay more $$ for little to no improvement.

That’s one reason I really like Olde Eynsford by Goex. For just $1 more than standard Goex I get the performance of Swiss. A win win!

For rifles the performance isn’t quite so much of an issue. It’s the small powder charges of revolvers where the difference is well worth it, even if I had to buy Swiss.

Here we can see from another fellas testing that any other powder other than Swiss, Olde E, or T7 really just isn’t acceptable for hunting, more so with a ball:

facebook photos upload

 

[8 BORE]

That’s one reason I really like Olde Eynsford by Goex. For just $1 more than standard Goex I get the performance of Swiss. A win win!

For rifles the performance isn’t quite so much of an issue. It’s the small powder charges of revolvers where the difference is well worth it, even if I had to buy Swiss.

Here we can see from another fellas testing that any other powder other than Swiss, Olde E, or T7 really just isn’t acceptable for hunting, more so with a ball:

facebook photos upload

Graf powder is made by Swiss

 

[Eutycus]

That was going to be my next question. Who makes what?

 

[Bad Karma]

That seems odd to me that the ffg Goex shots grouped higher that any of the fffg ....

Even though the ffg Goex produced a lower velocity.

I would have expected the opposite results ...

Great test , Thanks for posting.

Longer barrel time? I’ve noticed that with the different point of impact from revolvers. A heavier bullet at lower velocity striking higher on the target vs. a lighter, faster projectile.

 

[smo]

I’ve heard muzzle jump will cause that in a revolver.

Semisane said , he made a sight adjustment that explained why the ffg shot higher.