Got My Smoothie Today...Disappointment

[big bore 75]

I don'y know what happend to your gun in the white but I have had the opportunity to meet him, go into his shop and welcomed into his home, whatched him at work, and have owned his guns built his kit guns and finished off a inthe white gun andnever had a problem, now if your gun internal barrel had a problem you should have called him imediatly about the sitution , as well as any inferior workmanship, that you believe is a so called "hack" too have seen hackmanship buy some of the big names in custum builders, I believe you are extreamly upsetas would I be , I am thinking in my imho you need to contact Larry and talk to him. bb75

 

[Okwaho]

I will agree with skagun and big bore 75 here. Larry deserves at the very least some rebuttal time.I have never owned one of his guns but have seen several and have never heard any comment such as the one made by deaddog.While I realize his anger and frustration as shown vividly in his post,I think that the more prudent course of action would have been to contact Larry, explain the concern and find a way to correct the problem rather than going on,literally,the world wide web.I haven't seen the gun in question but it would seem to be an abberation rather than commonplace.There is are two old sayings that comes to mind here: "You get more flies in a trap with honey than with vinegar" and "You praise in public but chastize in private"

Remember,too,that we are talking about a man's livelihood here and as has often been said,"Criticism is on page 1, but explanations and retractions are on the last page of a 30 page newspaper.I think it would have been by far the better part of valor to have contacted Larry and worked out a solution to the problem rather than to go immediately to a message board and air the problem for the world to see.We just went through a similar problem with Narragansett Arms and all the talk and threats may have just driven him into bankruptcy, a solution which I wouldn't like to see but which is what I would have recommended to him had he sought my legal advice. When you push someone into a corner you need to consider what he will do to get out and sometimes it isn't very pretty.
Tom Patton

 

[3 stinky dogs]

I dont know maby its better to bring it hear.All the bad is already out in the open Now we can see what he will do.As I hinted erler it seems like building thees guns is a small industry where you ern your reputation and any funny business.And what better place to show your stuff then right here?I am just wondering how it got messed up.some one put that gun in a box and sent it.The question is why it made it into the box.

 

[Ridge]

How about some pics? I'd like to see this monstrosity.

I've considered buying a club butt fowler from him for about a year now, it was to be my next purchase. I'm very interested in how this pans out.

 

[rich pierce]

I'm with the guys who say, "give the man a chance to work it out with you."

I will also say this (again): There are some makers out there offering guns at very low prices. VERY low. I'm not talking low compared to factory guns, but low considering the parts being used. I do not know how they do it. I sincerely believe they are trying to fill a niche in the market for good reliable guns that look period correct and serve the customer well. And when they are starting out, they do some great work.

In my experience, this approach never works for very long. Cutting the margin too close is going to hurt customers in the end. Because at some point, the maker will not be able to afford adequate parts inventory, and the bad stuff happens that they did not plan on. Stuff that happens to everyone, but they didn't leave enough margin. The stock blank that reveals a bad fault only after the inletting begins. A dovetail that went too deep. A helper who shows a lot of promise but suddenly cobs a job badly. And there's not enough profit for the year to relish tossing that one in the woodpile and starting over.

But folks hope for the best and believe that they can get for $1000 a gun they'd pay $2000 for from another guy. And sometimes they can. But not every time. Sometimes that gun they paid $1000 for will turn out to be worth $250.

I'm not saying that's where this builder is at. But I've seen it with a good many outfits, and it's a shame that a good builder will sometimes get themselves into an untenable situation trying to hit unrealistic price targets.

If you want a fine gun at a bargain price (not fancy- but fine, mechanically excellent and reliable, good fit and finish, style, etc., you best bet is to troll gun fairs for guys doing it part time for fun and eager to get established. On the tother hand, if you spend 5x as much as you think you should and get one from a top builder, the value will probably last forever.

 

[newt]

Haven't contacted him yet, too late today and I'm afraid of what I might have to say to him. If any of you have a gun on order from him, GOOD LUCK.

This is entirely my opinion of what I received, you may have better luck or may have one that was done with quality and care.

Rick.

In all fairness, don't you think a phone call to him would have been in order prior to your post?
Give the man the option to please his customer before posting here.
Philips head screws ???? I'd make the phone call first

 

[Okwaho]

Newt,I agree with you here and would like to make a comment. As to phillips head screws in a butt piece I have used them on old guns,wooden boxes and other antique furniture as a temporary stop gap to hold something together until I can get a correct screw. This may sound strange but those little slotted screws{I think no.8 and 5}aren't as common as they used to be. I have a 250 year old fusil fin up in New England having a lock made and I put several modern screws including a brass machine screw in the tang to hold the gun together. Maybe this is why you have phillips screws in a gun delivered in the white needing a lot of work.I don't know exactly what nail is the equivalent of a 14 ga.wire but I've used quite a few finishing nails slightly bent as barrel pins and again on my 18th century guns the makers used barrel pins which look for all the world like old fashioned baling wire and they are original equipment especially the pins for the thimbles and guards.A lot of people use too big a barrel pin and the result is flaking wood around the pin hole when you take the barrel out.I am super careful when I remove a barrel or any mount held in by a pin.I think you are right and a simple phone call just might resolve the problem.
Tom Patton

 

[Runner]

Quite frankly, if the gun was shipped as described, the customer owes the vendor nothing and is only being honest with others by telling the truth. This isn't grade school where snitching on a cheater was a bad thing. A guy on one of the auction sites sent me a pellet rifle that was no where near the description and was barely better than junk. He got upset because I did not give him a chance to make it right before telling the truth. The bottom line is this. He described it. He agreed to the price. He packed and shipped the junker. I did nothing but refuse hide his actions. Same here. If you ship a gun like that, everyone should be told and your business should take the lumps for doing so. Ask me to wait a year for a custom, then send me junk and expect me to be quiet about it while you slip the gun you should have sent the first time in as a replacement??? Not in this life time! This isn't a settlement with a non-disclosure clause.

 

[jim gray]

I too was considering ERA for my next flinter, when I can save up the money. I can understand your frustration and anger if you are not satisfied with the quality of your gun, but as for my, hopefully, future purchase, I will not decide on a maker based on one disgruntled customer, no offense to you Deaddawg, but I am not aware of anyone who has been so disappointed with an ERA gun, and will reserve judgement on this business until I see how this is resolved and hopefully get some input from a few other ERA customers.

It was a valid point that this kind of thing should never have happened, but the fact of the matter is the builder is human like the rest of us and not infallible this may have been an honest mistake, perhaps the wrong item was shipped or there is some other reasonable explanation. These things can and do happen to everyone, and the measure of the man isn't that he makes mistakes, but what he does to rectify them. Keep this in mind when you do talk to him and keep your temper in check unttil he has a chance to explain. I'm sure the situation will go much smoother for you that way. If you don't think you can be calm and cool about this, please consider letting someone else contact him on your behalf. You really can catch more flies with honey.

Additionally as I'm sure many of us will be following your post, please follow up on this until it is resolved and keep your curious fellow shooters apprised of the progress. I'm sure that if the man made an honest error, you won't want to destroy his livelihood.

I would be upset with the delay myself, but that seems to be pretty common with custom gun builders. Almost all of those that I've looked into have had a complaint or two about delivery.

As an aside when I read a review of a gun maker or a gun in a gun magazine I try to keep in mind who is supplying the advertising dollars that keep the magazine in print. You never see negative things being said about a gun in the magazines that they fund, you'll have to pay close attention to what is not said about the gun most of the time or comments like, "the finish is about what you would expect for a gun in this price range." That kind of statement should, in my opinion, raise alarms.
:m2c:

 

[longshot47]

Flies? Honey??
I tend to agree with Runner.


Longshot

 

Anyone else find it odd that he has three days worth of replies and hasn't responded once since his initial post?

:hmm:

 

[big bore 75]

I was noticing that too ..b75

 

[3 stinky dogs]

That dont mean anything relly.Somr times people just take there time.It took a long tome to get the gun It will take some time to get it worked out.But some pics would be nice.I would like to see the pits and lern how they got there .I would also like to see the lousey wood to mettle fit as well so I know what to look for when my gun gets here.

 

Not saying it means anything (though it possibly could)... just that I find it odd. If it were me, I'd be engaging in the discussion.

 

[Choctaw]

Haven't contacted him yet, too late today and I'm afraid of what I might have to say to him

A cooling off period might be a good thing. However, please let us know what Larry says. As a businessman I bet he does everything he can to make you happy.

 

[fatboy]

I too agree that this seems odd that he has not ingaged into the conversation lets face it guys things do happen , I think before posting here it should be addressed and try to resolve with said vendor ,then post your gripe and tell everyone how it worked out in the end . Ya know he could have had a bad day and either he or his help grabbed somthing that maybe wasnt even to go into the box because he/she was in a hurry to get done for the UPS man just a thought been there :imo:

 

The one thing that I have learned is that it is easier to buy a gun you like then it is to like the gun you buy. :hmm:

I have seven custom flintlocks now and I love every one of them, and no, I didn't order any of them. I go to big shows like Kalamazoo, there are hundreds of custom guns that you can hold and get to know before you have to pay for them. ::


TheGunCellar

 

[RJR]

Sorry about not getting back sooner. Got called into work Thursday night when our heat treat oven flew apart. Finally fixed and just got home. I have seen other work of Larry's and was duely impressed, that is why I ordered from him. The time delay in receiving the gun was not the problem as I contacted him periodically and was aware it was running behind, doesn't excuse a rush job. This work could have been by an apprentise, don't know, don't care. In all fairness I will say that the stock was beautifully carved, a lot of care, the kind of work of his I have seen in the past. I tried contacting him on Friday and got no answer, that is not a surprise as he has told me before that he doesn't always hear the phone in his shop. I will try to contact him again tomarrow. As far as giving him a chance to make it right; that chance was before it left his shop. There is nothing here that I cannot fix and turn it into a quality gun that I seen before of his, but that should not be necessary. The barrel was rusted about 1/3 of the way down from the muzzle. It has been honed about .007 and appears to be clean. The butt plate hollow has been brazed in and will fit just fine when it is cleaned up. My boss was very understanding while I was waiting on parts. The rest will be fixed a little at a time by adding metal or wood where needed. Yes, I will talk with Larry about this, but no, he will not have the opportunity to make it right. I am over being upset about it now, 60+ straight hours at work takes the anger out of you. As some of you have posted and as I have seen in the past, Larry does put out quality work and has a fine reputation as a builder, just not on this gun. I will keep you posted as things progress, and if I am able to talk to Larry tomarrow, I will ask him to post his comments here for all to read. These are just my feelings on it and will do the wok needed to fix it. Good Night, Rick.

 

As an aside when I read a review of a gun maker or a gun in a gun magazine I try to keep in mind who is supplying the advertising dollars that keep the magazine in print. You never see negative things being said about a gun in the magazines that they fund, you'll have to pay close attention to what is not said about the gun most of the time or comments like, "the finish is about what you would expect for a gun in this price range." That kind of statement should, in my opinion, raise alarms.
:m2c:

I would like to address this since it's my magazine that has brought this point up (thanks, Dawg... :blah

First: The Hudson Valley fowler that was built for Wayne Zurl was purchased by Wayne Zurl before Buckskinner ever existed. Wayne ordered the gun from Larry based on some specific qualifications based on an original gun from Wayne's old neighborhood in upstate NY.

Second: We don't run reviews for paying advertisers only. We run reviews of good products that we think people will like. The fact that Early Rustic Arms is an advertiser is secondary to the fact that we run the occasional article about his guns. James Townsed doesn't advertise with us but I love my spyglass and rave about it constently. High Horse Trading Company doesn't advertise with us, but I carry my burning glass pretty much every where I go, etc. etc.

Third: When I do run a piece about Larry Williams' guns, it's because I have seen other examples of his work and was genuinely impressed and therefore ran the material. It's the same reason that I run articles about Matt Dennison's muskets--I own one and shoot it often, it's a reliable, hardy, well made gun...well, the parts are well made, but I built it, so, Matt's off the hook for the looks of the thing. HOWEVER, having seen and fired his other guns, I can heartily recommend them. I have a whole list of people that I can recommend, some of them aren't advertisers.

My review policy is this: if it's good, we'll let you know. If it isn't, we send it (whatever "it" is) to the manufacturer and give him a chance to fix "it". If it comes back better, we let you know. If the manufacturer says "forget it, it's perfect the way it is", well, don't expect us to endorse the product, even if that company or individual is a paid advertiser. If Larry had sent a gun to me that was sub-par, I would have sent it back and told him that I couldn't run it until it was in top order.

Just wanted to clarify things, thanks! eace:

 

[LSU TIGER]

I'd like to see this gun for myself. Any chance of posting pics?