Got some new cookbooks.

[Nativearizonan]

Actually Father Kino is credited with introducing flour to the SW in the late 17th century. It was already being raised in large quantity by the tribes along the Gila when the Anglos first reached the area. It was also being raised in the upper Rio Grande Valley, but the climate there was not conducive to it being accepted, or the farmers just resisted it. In much of AZ it can be raised with little or no irrigation as a winter crop in existing fields, but in areas with colder winters, it interferes with the corn crop. It can be raised without irrigation, to some extent, but people there were used to growing in their irrigated fields. When the Anglo-operated distilleries started producing hooch for the fur trade, they preferred wheat, for some reason, and it became a more important crop in NM from then on.

After the US took over, wheat was the grain most purchased by the government, so then, as you say, it became a much larger part of the diet, not just tortillas, but also fry bread. Fry bread was the food of the captured nomadic tribes, but flour tortillas had already been around for a nearly 200 years in some parts of the SW, notably among the Pima and Maricopa.

 

[satx78247]

Do you happen to have a period/prime source for your comment? = What I posted has been generally accepted by scholars for over 6 decades, as well as the "more traditional members" of NA groups generally accept what I said.

For one thing, we will need to change the historical information in the displays at the NMAI if you're correct.

yours, satx

 

[Nativearizonan]

Do you happen to have a period/prime source for your comment? = What I posted has been generally accepted by scholars for over 6 decades, as well as the "more traditional members" of NA groups generally accept what I said.

For one thing, we will need to change the historical information in the displays at the NMAI if you're correct.

yours, satx

Which particular part of my comment? I don't have the period sources quickly available and would have to research it when I have the time. The fact Father Kino brought wheat with him to Pimeria Alta (including Southern Arizona) is well accepted and often quoted. You can do a quick search yourself on the Father Kino and wheat, like this:
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=father+kino+introduced+wheat&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Tracking it back to original source would take a bit more work. I have not read a translation of Father Kino's experiences, but they are available. I don't remember where I first was exposed to the idea, but it was probably in a native seeds context. I'm a bit of an amateur botanist and the origin of such oddities as peaches, watermelons, and wheat in the southwest are interesting to me. I know, I should get a life. It may have been here, or someplace like this:
http://shop.nativeseeds.org/collections/wheat

I do remember reading a period book that mentioned the inferior quality of the New Mexican wheat in the context of Simeon Turley's Taos distillery, while NM was still Mexican. That shouldn't be too hard to find. The fact Spaniards would have brought wheat seeds does not seem to be hard to intuit. They lived on wheat, so naturally would have felt it necessary to bring wheat with them to eat wherever they moved. There is a religious aspect as well, as the Catholic Church uses wheat and not corn for the eucharist wafers, which made wheat flour a necessity at missions.

Did the wheat growing Pimas eat flour tortillas? That may have been a leap of logic on my part, as tortillas were the kind of bread they made, when they made bread. I would have to search for someone that actually mentioned it though, as I do not remember reading any source saying exactly that.

 

[satx78247]

While I don't think that anyone would argue that wheat wasn't available in quantity at that time, I'd be interested in seeing source on any NA groups that early making tortillas of wheat flour. = As I said, we who are active with NMAI (and at other museums which have NA food/culture displays) will need to change some things in the historical displays & doing that will NOT be CHEAP.

IF/WHEN you have time to find a suitable source, PLEASE post it.

THANKS, satx

 

[Nativearizonan]

While I don't think that anyone would argue that wheat wasn't available in quantity at that time, I'd be interested in seeing source on any NA groups that early making tortillas of wheat flour. = As I said, we who are active with NMAI (and at other museums which have NA food/culture displays) will need to change some things in the historical displays & doing that will NOT be CHEAP.

IF/WHEN you have time to find a suitable source, PLEASE post it.

THANKS, satx

So you are looking for the earliest date that flour tortillas are mentioned? Is that right? If so, what is the date you are using now?

Give me the necessary parameters and I will keep my eyes pealed for anything that predates it.

 

[satx78247]

early in the 1920s, according to the BIA.

yours, satx

 

[Nativearizonan]

Okay, just to get this straight you are talking about a flat bread made with wheat flour, lard or other animal fat, and water.

The Navajo, I'm sure you know, claim to "invented" fry bread while they were being forced to live at Bosque Redondo. Fry bread is basically a thin bannock bread, and bannock bread has been around for hundreds of years. The difference between them both and flour tortillas is the fact there is no leavening in tortillas, and the fat is incorporated in the dough, rather than in the frying pan. That is the only difference. Fry bread starts out pretty thin before the leavening kicks in, and tortillas are sometimes pretty thick, depending on who is making them, so thickness is not a valid difference.

Hard tack, and similar crackers are made from flour and can be thin, but do not contain the fat, since they are designed for keeping long periods without becoming rancid. This also keeps them from being pliable like tortillas. A lot of hungry people have made bread from nothing but flour and water, heated in some fashion until it cooks.

So what you are looking for is any record of someone making unleavened flat wheat flour bread using fat in the dough to keep them pliable, and that could have led directly to modern tortillas. Not some far away Old World stuff. Is this correct? Not just something the Spanish may have called a tortilla, as the word tortilla simply means "small cake", which could easily describe a biscuit. And this anytime before 1920.

This should be interesting. I hope others will join in the hunt. Perhaps we should start a new thread, though, instead of continuing to hijack this nice thread on cookbooks.

 

[coloradoclyde]

The corn tortilla would pre-date European discovery of America..

The flour tortilla would depend on when and were flour was first introduced as a trade item...to those making corn tortillas.. Quite possibly South America.

 

[Nativearizonan]

That would be my logic, but SATX, or the museums he cited, seems to say logic is not enough.

 

[tenngun]

In the exadus story we are told the Hebrews ate unleavened bread, baked flat bread, water and wheat, or barley. Lots of flat breads made all in the same way all over the world. After all a pita is just a sopadillia by another name served with cinnamon and honey in stead of lamb and fava beans.
I think Og invented flour tortillas about thirty thousand years ago some where in antolia. It was called uh-uh.( Opp claimed he invented it and sued for the patten rights).

 

[coloradoclyde]

India has more types of flat breads than anyone I know of...


Appam ”“ a type of South Indian pancake made with fermented rice batter and coconut milk
Bakshalu ”“ made of maida, chanadal, sugar/jaggery, from the cuisine of Telangana, specially prepared for the Ugadi (Telugu New Year) festival
Baati ”“ hard, unleavened bread cooked in the desert areas of Rajasthan,[1] and in Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh
Bhakri ”“ round flat unleavened bread often used in the cuisine of the state of Maharashtra in India but is also common in western and central India, especially in the states of Rajasthan, Gujarat, Malwa, Goa, and northern Karnataka.
Bhatoora ”“ fluffy deep-fried leavened bread from North India
Chapati ”“ unleavened flatbread (also known as roti) from India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Pakistan.[2] It is a common staple food in India
Cheela ”“ see Pesarattu
Chikkolee ”“ spicy wheat dish common in southern Andhra Pradesh and parts of Maharashtra.
Chili parotha ”“ essentially a plain paratha shredded into small, bite-sized pieces mixed with sauteed onions, tomatoes, and chili powder
Daal Puri - Fried flatbread from Bengal where the dough is filled with cooked & spiced Cholar Dal (Bengal Gram lentil). Popular as a breakfast food.
Dhebra ”“ made with pearl millet (bajra) flour, often flavoured with fenugreek leaf (methi)
Dosa ”“ a fermented crêpe or pancake made from rice batter and black lentils. It is a staple dish in South Indian states of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh and Kerala. Masala dosa ”“ Dosa stuffed with fried potato,spices and onions
Benne dose ”“ type of dosa which traces its origin from the city of Davangere in Karnataka
Rava dosa ”“ crêpe of South India
Neer dosa ”“ crêpe prepared from rice batter. It is light type of dosa.

Idli ”“ rice and fermented black lentil batter that is steamed
Kachori ”“ unleavened deep-fried bread with lentils filling
Khakhra ”“ thin crackers made from mat bean, wheat flour and oil
Kulcha ”“ leavened bread eaten in India and Pakistan, made from maida flour (wheat flour)
Luchi ”“ deep-fried flatbread from Bengal similar to Puri but made with maida flour instead of atta.
Naan ”“ an oven-baked leavened flatbread
Papadum ”“ thin, crisp disc-shaped Indian food typically based on a seasoned dough made from black gram (urad flour), fried or cooked with dry heat
Paratha ”“ fried flatbread that originated in the Indian subcontinent. Can be made from atta as well as maida. Aloo paratha
Gobhi paratha

Parotta ”“ layered flat bread of Kerala[3] and some parts of Southern India, notably in Tamil Nadu made from maida flour
Pashti ”“ flatbread prepared with rice flour and pan fried in ghee
Pathiri ”“ pancake made of rice flour
Pesaha Appam ”“ unleavened Passover bread made by the Saint Thomas Christians (also known as Syrian Christians or Nasrani) of Kerala, India to be served on Passover night.[4]
Pesarattu ”“ crepe-like bread that is similar to dosa. It is made out of mung dal.
Phulka ”“ see chapati
Pitha ”“ a type of cake, dim sum or bread common in Assam and Orissa. Til Pitha ”“ Dry Powdered Rice cakes with Sesesame seeds and Jaggery filling Assam
Narikol Pitha ”“ Dry Powdered Rice cakes with grated and sweetened coconut filling Assam
Manda Pitha ”“ steamed Pitha Orissa
Kakara Pitha - Orissa

Puran Poli ”“ traditional type of sweet flatbread
Puri ”“ unleavened deep-fried bread
Radhaballabhi fried flatbread similar to Dalpuri but the filling consists of Urad Dal [Black Lentils] instead of Cholar Dal.
Ragi dosa - dosa made out of finger millet.
Roti ”“ The most simple and most common of all Indian breads. Akki rotti
Jolada rotti
Makki di roti
Ragi rotti - made of ragi (finger millet) flour
Rumali Roti

Sheermal ”“ saffron-flavored flatbread
Taftan ”“ a leavened bread from Uttar Pradesh
Tandoori Roti ”“ baked in a clay oven called a tandoor. Thicker than a normal Roti.
Thalipeeth ”“ savoury multi-grain pancake popular in Western India
Uttapam ”“ dosa-like dish made by cooking ingredients in a batter
Sanna ”“ Spongy rice cake available at Coastal Karnataka and Goa, made from fermented or unfermented Rice batter with or without sweeteners
Kori Rotti ”“ A crisp dry wafers (about 1mm thick) made from boiled rice and served along with spicy Chicken curry. Usually available in A4 size packs and very popular bread in Coastal Karnataka.

 

[tenngun]

Wow! :hatsoff:

 

[satx78247]

YEP & every one that I've tried was GOOD, too.

yours, satx

 

[Nativearizonan]

I think many of those flatbreads would have been called tortillas by the Spanish at the time of Columbus. Presently there is an omelet in Spain which is called a tortilla, but I read on the internet (for what it's worth) that at the time of the Spanish Conquest of the New World, there was a hand flattened bread made from ground chick peas, they called a tortilla; and it looked very much like the corn flat bread they found in the New World; thus the name was applied to the new world bread.

I thought that was interesting since the gluten free fad has so many people eating chick pea flour in breads these days.

 

[Gene L]

I love bread! Corn, wheat, rye, whatever.

Also, I say (ahem) modestly that I'm a great cook. I've been cooking for 40 years or so and generally I don't rely on cookbooks on the long term but find them fascinating historically and refer to them when I'm attempting a new type of cooking...like Chinese or Thai.

Mexican food is bleh...same with Italian. Why, I don't know, they just don't stimulate my taste buds. Spaghetti is good, but I suspect the stuff we eat is highly Americanized. Same with Mexican food. If I had the original true ethnic foods, I might go crazy over it. Otherwise, I'll take it or leave it.

I like Southern cooking...fried. And grits. Apply the same test to grits as you would apply to rifle accuracy...if accuracy or grits ain't good, blame yourself, not the grits/rifle.

 

[satx78247]

Try some AUTHENTIC Mexican food from the interior & I don't think that you'll have the same opinion.

Btw, my daughter, who is a naturalized citizen & who was from Mexico, says that there are at least seven & perhaps as many as ten different styles of REAL Mexican food.

just my OPINION, satx

 

[coloradoclyde]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/conzpreti/dishes-that-are-not-really-mexican?utm_term=.hugmBbYr#.faR9WryL :haha:

 

[satx78247]

EXACTAMUNDO. OLE!! BRAVO!! OLE!!

Personally, I like BOTH Tex-Mex & REAL Mexican food.

yours, satx

 

[Gene L]

Try some AUTHENTIC Mexican food from the interior & I don't think that you'll have the same opinion.

Btw, my daughter, who is a naturalized citizen & who was from Mexico, says that there are at least seven & perhaps as many as ten different styles of REAL Mexican food.

just my OPINION, satx

Not sure where I would find Real Mexican food from the interior of Mexico in Watkinsville, GA, any more than I'd find Real Greek food. It just ain't gonna happen although I'll bet real Mexicans and real Greeks love authentic ethnic food. I find American Mexican food acceptable, just not all that great. There's something in the combination of chilies, corn, tomatoes, and spices (cumin, cilantro) I don't go crazy over. I like them individually, just don't like them combined. Well, kinda like them, but would never take myself out for a nice dinner of exclusively Mexican food. Or Italian food, for that matter.

Same thing with any kind of sausages. I don't like them regardless of where they're from. Don't like hot dogs. Don't like bratwurst, Italian sausages, or link sausages. You can tell my experience with sausages is limited. I love the idea, but find that they're generally over spiced (to dampen the taste of spoiled meat?) and greasy. Or like hot dogs, just plain yucky and the product of left-over meat unfit for consumption otherwise. I doubt I eat five hotdogs a year. When I see food shows with them, I want one but a hot dog never fails to disappoint me.

I guess it depends on what you're brought up to like and develop a taste for. Some people I know hate country ham, feeling it's too salty (which it is) and like pork chops that are an inch thick and grilled. And green beans that are crispy when cooked. No thanks.

 

[satx78247]

Generally speaking, you must GO to Mexico for authentic "interior" food, though LA FONDA SAN MIGUEL in Austin is perfectly acceptable, though $$$$$$$$$.
(My adult Mexicana daughter LIKES that place. She especially likes a "dress up place" for dinner after 1800. = LA FONDA is a "cocktail dress & heels" kind of place at night & "nice church attire" for brunch on Sunday.)

Fwiw, I find LA PALOMA here in SA "quite acceptable" as a "place to take a lady" at night for dinner. = Noemi says, that, "It's OK."
(I'm NOT a Mexican, so my knowledge may be limited.)

yours, satx