Green River Rifle Works Leman Trade Gun

[Falconer]

I recently got a Green River Rifle Works Leman Trade gun in .58 cal. It has a low serial number...under 600. I've done a little research on GRRW but was wondering if anyone on the forum knows much about them. What is the rate of twist? Will it shoot balls and conicals? How do they rate as shooters? What might it be worth? etc...

 

[ugly old guy]

Value wise, the only thing I know is, if you and the seller are happy with the deal the two of you made, it is worth what you paid for it.
I have no idea what it will be worth to the next owner. (if applicable)

Since it is a .58 caliber, I would guess the rate of twist would be around whatever a .577/.58 caliber reproduction rifled musket is.
I'm probably mistaken, but I think most who have a .58 caliber shoot conicals, rather than a PRB.

I'd guess a starting load of 60 grain FFg and work up from there. Personally, I would not go above 110 - 120 grains FFg.

 

[denster]

I had one a number of years ago. They have a roundball twist 1-60 if I recall. Solid well built simple rifle. In the 1980s I paid 400 at the Log Cabin shop and felt it was a fair price. It shot very well and I won a number of matches with it.

 

[azmntman]

You can easily check twist yerself with a lightly oil patch. Push it down all the way and see what turn is on way up and figure it out. 48" barrel if it makes a whole turn its 1-48. If only half a turn its 1-96 (have had a rum and coke on empty stomach). If 2 turns its 1-24.

VERY nice looking rifle and I bet its a shooter. Let us know.

 

[gemmer]

GRRW rifles were strictly roundball rifles. I would expect a .58 to be a 1-66 twist. They had seven lands and grooves. Their barrels were known for their accuracy. Shooting a conical out of it would be sacrilege.

 

[BigAl52]

Gemmer is correct. I own 4 of there rifles. I only shoot roundballs and they shoot very well. If Mtn Meek were to come on here he could probably give you a little more info also. Builders stamp should be at the rear on the left side.

 

[peashooterJoe]

Green River Rifle Works was formed in March of 1972. It started up in Dr. Gary “Doc” White’s garage with Carl Walker as its first employee. The first rifle that GRRW produced was a half stock called the Leman Trade Rifle. He is making Hawkens Rifles occassionly. http://grrw.org/leman-trade-rifle/ . He is still a practicing Dr. and making rifles. great for a man over 80..Peashooterjoe

 

[Herb]

From the Green River catalog: "The question of whether we could make our barrels shoot both slugs, like the minie and maxie balls also came up. After considerable research, we found that we could not do it to our satisfaction. Consequently, our barrels are made for round ball shooting only, which is why GRWW "Plum Center" barrels have seven grooves .012 thou deep for a sure grip on the patch and ball with twists of 1-60 or 75 for accurate shooting with round ball whether on target or in the field. SPECIFICATIONS: seven land and grooves of approximately same width, grooves .012 deep, twist 1-60 standard (1-75 optional-slow delivery), muzzle finish-cut and crowned, drilled and tapped for standard breech threads, available in 36 or 42 inch lengths."

 

[plmeek]

Herb's the man. His info on the GRRW made barrels is correct.

There is one caveat, though. As peashooterJoe posted, GRRW started in early 1972. But they didn't start making their own barrels until early 1974. So for the first two years of operation, they were building their rifles with Douglas barrels.

Based on the serial number range, Falconer, your rifle could have a Douglas barrel which has 8 grooves and lands and a twist of 1:66. I have Leman Trade Rifles SN's 516 and 574 in my collection, and they both have Douglas barrels. I'm not sure at what serial number in the Leman Trade Rifle they made the switch from Douglas to their own barrels, but your rifle might be close to that switch over. Check the number of lands/grooves. If the count is 8, then you have a Douglas barrel with 1:66 twist. If the count is 7, then you have a GRRW barrel with 1:60 twist.

These are the early pattern of the Leman Trade Rifle. They used commercially available butt plates and trigger guards which are a little larger and heavier than the later butt plate and trigger guard designed by Phil "Bluejacket" Sanders and were proprietary to GRRW. So this pattern of Trade Rifle isn't as slim as the later pattern rifles. These early Leman rifles also used Bob Kern's coil spring lock. (It's not clear if the picture you posted is of your rifle or just a picture you found on the internet. It looks like a picture I have of SN 519 from when it sold many years ago.) The Leman Trade Rifle in all patterns was the most affordable model that GRRW made and the model with the highest production numbers. The highest serial number I've seen has been in the low 1800's. The half stock Hawken has the next highest production number at 680 rifles.

For collectors, this early pattern Leman Trade Rifle isn't as desirable as the later pattern with the proprietary hardware. Since the Leman Trade Rifle is the most numerous and was the lowest priced initially, its value today is generally the lowest. Depending on condition, the value can range from $500 to $1,000.

From a shooters perspective, these were very accurate rifles with either Douglas or GRRW barrels. They were made for target shooting at the range and for hunting in the woods. I know guys that wouldn't part with their Leman Trade Rifle at any price because they've hunted with it for years and have full confidence in its ability to make meat.

 

[plmeek]

I recently received some GRRW promotional material from the widow of a deceased acquaintance who was an early proponent of GRRW rifles and former employee of Old West Arms, a popular gun store that used to be here in Denver. Included were a couple of "Owner's Cards" for GRRW's Leman Trade Rifles that I hadn't seen before. These cards are heavy stock paper of 6" x 8" dimensions, printed on both sides and folded in half, making a 4" x 6" booklet.

These appear to have been used in 1973 and early 1974 because they describe the Leman Trade Rifle with a Douglas barrel and Kern lock. Here are some scans of one of them.

Note that GRRW described this early pattern Leman Trade Rifle as "a practical hunting rifle manufactured of the highest quality materials and is meant to withstand rough handling and heavy charges. It is capable of excellent accuracy when used as a target arm, but was designed primarily for hunting big game."

Note also that their suggested load for a .58 caliber was 140 grains of FFg black powder and maximum load of 195 grains of FFg. We were younger back then and a lot more tolerant of recoil. I don't know anybody shooting such heavy loads today.

Doc White and many of the GRRW employees were big proponents of hunting with muzzleloader guns. This was in the period when magnum cartridge guns were very popular and some folks wanted to make "magnums" out of their muzzleloaders. They made annual trips back to Nebraska to hunt buffalo and wanted one shot kills with their muzzleloaders. Of course, they hunted elk and mule deer in Utah and Colorado every year and Doc made trips to Alaska and Canada to hunt moose, bear, and other big game. This is the reason they were wanting performance in the 1750 to 2000 fps range. Today, most of us are satisfied with muzzleloader performance in the 1200 to 1500 fps range.

 

[Herb]

Ain't it wonderful to have smart friends! I mean that warmly and sincerely, Phil. Two comments. This rifle is called an Indian Trade Rifle. In their catalog, they list a Leman Indian Rifle and a Leman Trade Rifle. I built a Trade rifle in a class in their shop in 1978. Second comment, they tell how to load- "Lubricate a patch with oil......" Anyone do that?

 

[gemmer]

Leman flint Indian Rifle

 

[Einsiedler]

Very nice piece, Falconer!!!!

My GRRW Leman is a .50 cal. Don Mckee made rifle. I received it as my "wedding rifle" in 1980. It has beaucoup miles on it and many deer and hogs.

 

[plmeek]

Two comments. This rifle is called an Indian Trade Rifle. In their catalog, they list a Leman Indian Rifle and a Leman Trade Rifle. I built a Trade rifle in a class in their shop in 1978. Second comment, they tell how to load- "Lubricate a patch with oil......" Anyone do that?

I noticed the different name, "Leman Indian Trade Rifle", in the document I posted, also. I went back to my files, and interestingly, the earliest GRRW magazine advertisement (Muzzle Blast July 1972) I had found, called the Leman half stock rifle a "Leman Indian Trade Rifle", also.

The earliest GRRW Brochure/Catalog that I am aware of that they apparently used in 1973 also called the half stock rifle an "Indian Trade Rifle". Note, they hadn't introduced any full stock Leman models yet. That would come in 1974.

The brochure/catalog that GRRW prepared for 1974 called the half stock Leman a "Leman Indian Trade Rifle", again.

Interestingly, this brochure/catalog introduced two Leman full stock rifles. One with a 40" long barrel, they called "Leman model 1822 Trade Rifle" and the other with a 30" barrel, they called a "Leman model 1858 Indian Rifle". Obviously, they were struggling with what to call their products as they introduced new models. The "Leman model 1822 Trade Rifle", for example, appears from the sketched image to be very close to some of the earliest rifles Henry Leman produced for the western trade. But in 1822, Henry Leman was only 10 years old. He didn't open his own shop and start making rifles under his name until 1834. Someone got the date in the name all wrong. I have not seen one of these models by GRRW and don't know how many, if any, they produced and sold. Some years after GRRW closed, Ted Holland and Lloyd Helms (a former GRRW employee) formed a company in Boise, ID they called Oregon Trail Riflesmiths. OTR produced a long barreled Leman full stock rifle very similar to the sketch of GRRW's "Leman model 1822 Trade Rifle". A few of these are floating around out there.

By 1975, GRRW had settled on the final names for their Leman models. In their 1975 Brochure/Catalog, they use the name "Leman Trade Rifle" for the half stock and "Leman Indian Rifle" for the short barrel full stock model. Note, the so called "Leman model 1822 Trade Rifle" is no longer listed as a cataloged item.

They used these names for their Leman models from then on, including in the 1977 copyrighted brochure you pictured, Herb.

As far as the instructions to "Lubricate a patch with oil......" in the loading instructions on the Owners Card, I could see it if they are meaning "sweet oil" or some other vegetable oil. I would think they would know better than to recommend a petroleum based oil as a patch lubricant. I'm sure that's just an oversight in their choice of words.

 

[Einsiedler]

My old hunting pard from Albuquerque hunted with a flint .54 fullstock GRRW Leman. Man, I loved that rifle! He was with me when horse, me, and 1/2 stock Leman pictired above took a bit of a tumble down a mountainside not far from Mt. Sheridan in SW Gila, NM. He just kinda sat there on his mule and watched! LOL! Couldn’t do much else. I miss him!

 

[plmeek]

Interesting that the OP hasn't commented on any of the information that has been provided him. In one posting, I suggested that the rifle might have a Douglas barrel and all he needed to do was count the number of lands/grooves. He hasn't bothered to report back with that count.

Based on the serial number range, Falconer, your rifle could have a Douglas barrel which has 8 grooves and lands and a twist of 1:66. I have Leman Trade Rifles SN's 516 and 574 in my collection, and they both have Douglas barrels. I'm not sure at what serial number in the Leman Trade Rifle they made the switch from Douglas to their own barrels, but your rifle might be close to that switch over. Check the number of lands/grooves. If the count is 8, then you have a Douglas barrel with 1:66 twist. If the count is 7, then you have a GRRW barrel with 1:60 twist...(It's not clear if the picture you posted is of your rifle or just a picture you found on the internet. It looks like a picture I have of SN 519 from when it sold many years ago.)

I also pointed out that the picture he posted was one that I had found on the internet almost 10 years ago of a rifle that was up for sale at that time. I was curious whether his rifle is the same rifle or he just used a photo of a similar rifle. He never responded back. Now I'm wondering if he really has a GRRW Leman Trade Rifle at all.

Here are some more photos I saved of SN 519 almost 10 years ago.

This rifle would have a Douglas barrel.

 

[Falconer]

Just got back from out of town. I have not had a chance to count the lands and grooves but the serial number would put it in the range of a Douglas barrel. The photo is one I found on the Internet but mine looks exactly like it. The only difference is the guy I bought it from replaced the buckhorn site with a modern rear site. I replaced that with a buckhorn first thing. I haven't had a chance to burn any powder yet but I'm looking forward to it! Thank You to everyone who contributed! You've educated me a little better and that's always a good thing!! The photos of the paperwork were especially helpful.

 

[F.G. Ford]

I recently got a Green River Rifle Works Leman Trade gun in .58 cal. It has a low serial number...under 600. I've done a little research on GRRW but was wondering if anyone on the forum knows much about them. What is the rate of twist? Will it shoot balls and conicals? How do they rate as shooters? What might it be worth? etc...View attachment 23100

Hi Guys!
This has been a great thread!
These rifles have set the bench mark years ago for a fine, but inexpensive rifle that would have been used in the early and mid 1800's
Thank you for the informative information and history of some of the better reproduction black powder guns made in our time.
All the best!
Fred

 

[springfield art]

Value wise, the only thing I know is, if you and the seller are happy with the deal the two of you made, it is worth what you paid for it.
I have no idea what it will be worth to the next owner. (if applicable)

Since it is a .58 caliber, I would guess the rate of twist would be around whatever a .577/.58 caliber reproduction rifled musket is.
I'm probably mistaken, but I think most who have a .58 caliber shoot conicals, rather than a PRB.

I'd guess a starting load of 60 grain FFg and work up from there. Personally, I would not go above 110 - 120 grains FFg.

Yes, but back in the days when the Hawkin- type rifles were in use, they'd of used round balls in that. It's a darn nice-looking rifle, and GRRW rifles are eagerly sought! Nice!!

 

[Treestalker]

The black powder gunsmith I studied under, Mr. Leon Miller, of Kirbyville, Texas, had the highest regard for GRRW and constantly commented on their quality of build, components and accuracy. This was in the 1980's and I reckon GRRW was out of business by then. I never saw or used a GRRW rifle, but Mr. Miller's half stock guns reflected their style. Beautiful work.