Grinding Powder

[FlinterNick]

Can someone please explain to me, without being a wise___, or otherwise getting emotional and defensive about it,,,,, what is this obsession people seem to have developed about grinding powder? It seems this topic comes up frequently, maybe with increasing frequency.
With a few hundred years of priming guns with whatever powder was used to charge the gun and a huge number of people replying in modern times that their 2f and 3f works just fine in the pan, I really and truly don't understand this question.

Thanks in advance for any reasonable answer.

I don’t understand it either.

2F and 3F are perfectly fine priming powders. If you have a 1F and need 2F then go buy some 2F.

Not to mention the potential hazards of grinding powders, these are the folks that end up with second and third degree powder burns.

 

[deerstalkert]

I don’t understand it either.

2F and 3F are perfectly fine priming powders. If you have a 1F and need 2F then go buy some 2F.

Not to mention the potential hazards of grinding powders, these are the folks that end up with second and third degree powder burns.

can you cite or link even one case of this happening? not trying to start a tiff but really would like to see any evidence of this other than anecdotal.

 

[FlinterNick]

can you cite or link even one case of this happening? not trying to start a tiff but really would like to see any evidence of this other than anecdotal.

No sir, my comment was in hyperbole. Take my meaning as its just not a safe or wise thing to do.

FYI I doubt people that get powder burns from messing around with powder alchemy report their cases to the media.

In any event, i recomend you pay a visit to an ER on the 4th of July, you’ll get my meaning much better.

 

[senseisugarbear]

Brokennock, under slow-mo it’s been shown and timed, there’s a tiny bit of difference between 2, 3 and 4f on the average shot. Using 5, or 6f everything stays very much cleaner. But the real thing is for a competitive target shooter especially off hand the mental aspect comes into play. A top shooter knows when the gun is going off pulls (jerks) the trigger when the sights align. As much as we wish, off hand unfortunately the barrel does keep moving. When the competitor KNOWS ?? the shot is going off faster, whether it does or not has no bearing. He is confident, therefore more likely to hit exactly where he want’s. I unfortunately have dropped out of the top category because of age. But I admit I still use 5f. It certainly can’t hurt.
Doc,

I agree that 2 or 3F will work,no doubt about it. What I want to address is the burning rate and hotter temp of 4F. 4F burns hotter and faster the the lesser 2&3F granulations..That's a FACT. The finer the granulation the more surface area exposed, W/ more Surface area exposed it is consumed Quicker thus Hotter. All that being said I usually just use 3F.

 

[jdw276]

I agree that 2 or 3F will work,no doubt about it. What I want to address is the burning rate and hotter temp of 4F. 4F burns hotter and faster the the lesser 2&3F granulations..That's a FACT. The finer the granulation the more surface area exposed, W/ more Surface area exposed it is consumed Quicker thus Hotter. All that being said I usually just use 3F.

Jist like kindling on starting a fire. Start small to get big.

 

[deerstalkert]

No sir, my comment was in hyperbole. Take my meaning as its just not a safe or wise thing to do.

FYI I doubt people that get powder burns from messing around with powder alchemy report their cases to the media.

In any event, i recomend you pay a visit to an ER on the 4th of July, you’ll get my meaning much better.

OK. having 60 years+ of making my own and grinding BP i was just curious if there were any documented events you could point out.
I guess its like the story I was told 60+ years ago about a competitor at a shoot in southern California that dropped a lit cigarette into a can of ffg. story told of only finding the bottom half of the careless fellow.

 

[Brokennock]

Take my meaning as its just not a safe or wise thing to do.

What isn't safe or wise?
Most importantly, what isn't safe?

 

[Brokennock]

Brokennock, under slow-mo it’s been shown and timed, there’s a tiny bit of difference between 2, 3 and 4f on the average shot. Using 5, or 6f everything stays very much cleaner. But the real thing is for a competitive target shooter especially off hand the mental aspect comes into play. A top shooter knows when the gun is going off pulls (jerks) the trigger when the sights align. As much as we wish, off hand unfortunately the barrel does keep moving. When the competitor KNOWS ?? the shot is going off faster, whether it does or not has no bearing. He is confident, therefore more likely to hit exactly where he want’s. I unfortunately have dropped out of the top category because of age. But I admit I still use 5f. It certainly can’t hurt.
Doc,

I guess I can understand the psychological factor.
Unfortunately I think that too many newer shooters see stuff like that, and maybe some long time shooters too, and just don't understand that it is all a mind trick.
To my understanding Pletch's photo timed studies that show the finer powder being slightly faster, show that the faster speed is not within the realm of human perception....
But,,, alas,,, our minds work in funny ways.

 

[deerstalkert]

in all my unscientific test over a long time, the thing that effects powder combustion time most has been moisture. someday i may get a moisture meter and test, but someone will be along to say that running an electrical impulse through powder is dangerous.

 

[Brokennock]

in all my unscientific test over a long time, the thing that effects powder combustion time most has been moisture. someday i may get a moisture meter and test, but someone will be along to say that running an electrical impulse through powder is dangerous.

And 4f is unglazed,,, and I would imagine grinding 2f or 3f into 5f or dust would negate their moisture resistant qualities.

Everything is "dangerous" to someone... I wonder how many people get up the courage to leave the house without being clothed in bubble wrap. (Actually I wish most people wouldn't leave the house,,, and that includes keeping what goes on in their heads within their house too.)

 

[Grenadier1758]

One thing I have noticed. When I shoot my flint locks, I can sense a delay between igniting the pan and setting off the main charge. I can load the rifle and let someone else shoot it. The rifle fires instantly. Nothing changed in the load except my finger is not on the trigger. As I have observed earlier, time slows when one is firing a flintlock.

 

[deerstalkert]

for me time rolls back about 250 years! just wish i could stay there.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

Can someone please explain to me, without being a wise___, or otherwise getting emotional and defensive about it,,,,, what is this obsession people seem to have developed about grinding powder? It seems this topic comes up frequently, maybe with increasing frequency.
With a few hundred years of priming guns with whatever powder was used to charge the gun and a huge number of people replying in modern times that their 2f and 3f works just fine in the pan, I really and truly don't understand this question.

Thanks in advance for any reasonable answer.

Yes any powder can be used as a primer. With any type of gun powder the finer the grains the faster it burns. Probably talking about milli-seconds but a lot can still happen. Priming powder is not anything new. You can go back to the manifests of what the traders were taking to the rendezvous and you will find pan powder listed.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

For many people it goes with what you were taught. I use 3f in my 50/54 and 4 f priming. That is how I was taught. I use 3f in my .62/20 gauge fowler because that is what I have, and prime with 4 F. If I run out I guess I could try 2f in the fowler but not sure it would make enough difference that i would notice? I am just not that good!

 

[Rich44]

For the same reason you should not use 4F powder in large bore rifles is the same reason you should use it for the flash pan. THE BURN RATE. Why not follow the manufactures recommendations.

"Black powder is produced in several different grades of increasing grain size (coarseness): FFFFg, FFFg FFg, and Fg. Smaller grain size powder is easier to ignite and burns faster. FFFg and FFg are the two most common grades in use today. Generally speaking, FFFg powder is best suited for muzzleloading rifles and pistols smaller than .45 caliber."

Now if 4F was not available I might try grinding. But it is available so why not buy 1 can, it will last a looong time and you would be using what is made for priming.

 

[docmel]

Great postings. Frankly, I dont beleive back in the day that grinding was a QA focused issue. But again, Ill bet there were more misfires.........

I am getting ready to make my own BP based videos. I wont go into making them, just actually shooting the homemade BP

1. One small batch will be just mixing the components by hand, no fine mixing for hours in my tumbler).

2. Then a small batch mixing in a tumbler for an hour

3. Then for 3-4 hrs

The idea is to see the dif between batches when atcually shooting

 

[Dude]

I'm not sure the OP's question was answered. Does anyone grind their coarser powder to make 4F?

So we heard from one fellow who says all the guys who tried it either blew themselves up, were too ashamed to communicate their mistake, or were in some way unable to let us know it's a bad idea. Therefore we shouldn't do it, cause it's dangerous. No data.

Seems the discussion has morphed into - 'can coarser granulations be used to prime?' Even there, the consensus is muddy - supposedly 4F is faster (it should be), but those who have tried other granulations weren't sure if there was any difference.

My takeaway so far is this - grinding small amounts of powder in some way (like a non metallic mortar and pestle) isn't particularly dangerous. And just about any of the common granulations will prime the pan, but 4F or finer is best.

 

[Kansas Jake]

It is interesting to me how we often speculate about what people did 150+ years ago. I suspect most did what they were taught by older family or neighbors. The exception is obviously those who may have been in the military. Even then they may have reverted to what dad or grandpa did with the family gun when they went home. Today we have the advantage of instant communication with people from a wide spectrum of area and experience. My guess is most did it at a pretty basic level and if old Joe discovered a way to win local matches he may have been closed mouthed about it. Sorta like where is the best fishing hole.

 

[Doc]

Never thought there would be this much banter on my grinding powder. Please let me explain myself. Back in the mid 90s I was at a small Rhondy I had never been to. About 100 shooters and no separate primitive camp. Meet a newbe that I shared some of my pie with. He asked me if 7f was OK to shoot. Questioned him on it and he returned from his trailer with a Goex can labeled 7f. Very small granules almost a dust. Emptied my priming horn put some 7f in. Used it on my flint rifle and tradegun and shot lights out. On the trail of 30 targets never had to wipe my pan or flint, shot that clean. Yes I used to be a very competitive shooter, and continued over the years grinding 4 to 5 and perhaps near 6f in a marble mortar and pestle. I happen to know many others who do the same. Yes it’s slow hard work. Now can one shoot 2or 3f for a prime, absolutely yes. Perhaps even a necessity in a humid climate where 4f has been known to turn to mud. Did the smaller granules help me continue to win or was it just me. Now that I am well past my prime I will never know. BUT I still grind.
Doc,

 

[deerstalkert]

it has always intrigued me how people that will sit next to a camp fire with their powder horn flopping about, will get the vapors over making, grinding etc BP.
intimate knowledge of the process for 60+ years and i still look like this.