Grinding Powder

[FlinterNick]

ya'll may want to do a little more studying. base powder is just that, powder. 4f is granulated, and if it is ffffg it is glazed.

The grain sizes of 4f powder varies between .42 - .15, that’s a .30 variance / difference… ungrandulated powder, 5F by Swiss is a consistent .15.

The difference between 3F and 4F is greater than 50%.

And I just looked at the label on swiss and schutzen… says under 250a … do not subject powder to grinding or friction.

Goex says the same, avoid impact or friction.

It is really not woth the trouble to grind powder, in this day and age.. it take sone dummy to kill the fun for everyone.

 

[deerstalkert]

 

[Brokennock]

Its not safe for many reasons but there’s an obvious reason.

Most people that are messing around with powder for the purpose of grinding it down to turn 2F to 3f or 3f to 4f are doing so happhazardly without thinking about the obvious…. Going out and buying a contain of 4f. The safety factor is in the experience, and the ignorance. Mistakes happen, only when mistakes happen with gunpowder they tend have more consequences.

I’m not saying someone who makes their own powders shouldn’t do that, if you’ve got the experience and the shop go for it.

But the question was about grinding powder to make 4f. I wouldn’t do it simply becuase, I can buy it. Furthermore I think I’ve had the same container of 4f for 5 years.

Please point out "the obvious."

Powder doesn't ignite or explode from percusion/impact. Unless there is heat/spark/flame, where is the "danger?"

 

[Brokennock]

I’m not telling anyone what to do, Just that you ought not.

And you haven't provided even 1 (one) good reason regarding safety we anyone, "ought not."

I too don't see much good reason to do it. But I also don't see any safety reason why someone shouldn't.

 

[R Ellis]

Yes, general comment. Tired of seeing folks complaining about, don't do this, I wouldn't do that... no!! You'll ruin it. Folks need to learn their own limitations and stop the belly aching over what someone else is doing.

Could be, that person may just have more experience and knowledge about the topic than you.

Kinda like folks that can't change their oil.

Well said Sir

 

[Adneg]

There’re always nay sayers with any idea.

I’ve ground my powder in a small porcelain coffee grinder and the effect on ignition was not significant. I eventually asked myself why do I need very fast ignition, ? I really didn’t. I decided to not grind my powder and took the easy button and got some FFFF, now i later came to discover that my FFF works way better in my pedersoli 54 flintlock.

Is it safe ? In small amounts.

Can friction cause blackpowder to ignite, I don’t want to be the one to try, friction does create heat, rub your hands together, rub two sticks together. I watch a lot naked and afraid, so.

I’m with airing on the side of caution always, dad was fireman and he’d wake from his grave if he knew I messed with blackpowder.

 

[Adneg]

And you haven't provided even 1 (one) good reason regarding safety we anyone, "ought not."

I too don't see much good reason to do it. But I also don't see any safety reason why someone shouldn't.

I’d say should not because it doesn’t work.

I ground FFF into finer and got the same result, no quicker ignition.

When I bought FFFF and tested it, it burned faster much faster then my grinding experiment.

I’m not a chemist, but I’m thinking some component is missing or altered when you grind your own.

We asked this question years back on the American Riflemen forum and got the same reaction, lots of hesitant folks, and its understandable, I mean you wont see in my garage trying to increase the octane of my lawnmower fuel.

 

[Frontier's]

Finer the granulation, the faster the burn. Hence, why we have, 1 2 3 and 4f. Not rocket science.

 

[deerstalkert]

it just boils(no pun intended ) down to moisture content of the ground powder if there is no increase of burn rate. Period.
gun powder (the real stuff that we use) is composed of 3 elements. some times these basic elements are treated with maybe 2 other elements. as Frontier says, not rocket science. even a caveman can do it! when you go over to that new stuff you get into rocket science.
the "I can" attitude of the American Male has been slowly suppressed to the point i fear for the future. now i am going out to build another rifle. see ya'll

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I made this mini stone grinder as a copy of an enormous one we had at work. Does the job , better wet than dry. Makes a lovely mess at speed. I have a geared motor off my tumbler that clips on the shaft

 

[Dude]

… do not subject powder to grinding or friction.

Goex says the same, avoid impact or friction.

It is really not woth the trouble to grind powder, in this day and age.. it take sone dummy to kill the fun for everyone.

Thank you for bringing the negative side to the table for discussion!

You know, Schutzen and Goex, they've gotta cover their a$$es - and lawyers are going to have to approve their labels, advertising, and everything else. Some dummy could grind powder with something that could spark and then what? Instant litigation. So just nip it in the bud - DO NOT GRIND.

It's the fearful that make life difficult for the rest of us. If there's a chance of getting hurt, they'll put the brakes on for everyone. I've heard that if bicycles were just now being created, they'd never go into production for liability reasons.

I think the dummy that kills the fun for everyone is the fearful guy who doesn't or can't do the operation, yet attempts to stop everyone else.

 

[R Ellis]

it just boils(no pun intended ) down to moisture content of the ground powder if there is no increase of burn rate. Period.
gun powder (the real stuff that we use) is composed of 3 elements. some times these basic elements are treated with maybe 2 other elements. as Frontier says, not rocket science. even a caveman can do it! when you go over to that new stuff you get into rocket science.
the "I can" attitude of the American Male has been slowly suppressed to the point i fear for the future. now i am going out to build another rifle. see ya'll

You are so correct about the can do attitude being suppressed and also the attempts to turn men and boys into women it just makes me sick. I went to the dentist / a man but he was a sissy/ to get a tooth that had a small chip broken off one corner he wanted to crown it I said no just smooth it a little .He said what will your wife say I said I don't give a sh$t what see thinks . He about passed out.

 

[Adneg]

You are so correct about the can do attitude being suppressed and also the attempts to turn men and boys into women it just makes me sick. I went to the dentist / a man but he was a sissy/ to get a tooth that had a small chip broken off one corner he wanted to crown it I said no just smooth it a little .He said what will your wife say I said I don't give a sh$t what see thinks . He about passed out.

Thank you for bringing the negative side to the table for discussion!

You know, Schutzen and Goex, they've gotta cover their a$$es - and lawyers are going to have to approve their labels, advertising, and everything else. Some dummy could grind powder with something that could spark and then what? Instant litigation. So just nip it in the bud - DO NOT GRIND.

It's the fearful that make life difficult for the rest of us. If there's a chance of getting hurt, they'll put the brakes on for everyone. I've heard that if bicycles were just now being created, they'd never go into production for liability reasons.

I think the dummy that kills the fun for everyone is the fearful guy who doesn't or can't do the operation, yet attempts to stop everyone else.

You are so correct about the can do attitude being suppressed and also the attempts to turn men and boys into women it just makes me sick. I went to the dentist / a man but he was a sissy/ to get a tooth that had a small chip broken off one corner he wanted to crown it I said no just smooth it a little .He said what will your wife say I said I don't give a sh$t what see thinks . He about passed out.

Eeehhh this is not the first time this question has been come up on muzzle loading forums. I was one that asked about it years ago, all I can say is try it out, you will see.

but grinding powder doesn’t work, its pointless, it really does nothing for shooting speed or burn rates. Those powders are made with more than the traditional three ingredients. You have dextrins, graphites and even possibly some anti static chemicals so that the powder does not react with the packaging.

Just don’t go killing the hobby for us all, you know there’s some dumb politician out there waiting for it.

 

[Frontier's]

A finer granulation doesn't change burn rate, speed, pressure? What in the world?

 

[deerstalkert]

Eeehhh this is not the first time this question has been come up on muzzle loading forums. I was one that asked about it years ago, all I can say is try it out, you will see.

but grinding powder doesn’t work, its pointless, it really does nothing for shooting speed or burn rates. Those powders are made with more than the traditional three ingredients. You have dextrins, graphites and even possibly some anti static chemicals so that the powder does not react with the packaging.

Just don’t go killing the hobby for us all, you know there’s some dumb politician out there waiting for it.

you are absolutely correct. about the additives in commercial powder. and graphite is the antistatic.
lets take Dextrin. carbolized corn starch. noncombustible. slows my powder down 20%.
graphite. basically carbon. though in the most stable form thusly resisting conversion to energy. increases the ignition heat needed, though i have never quantified that rise. i just know if i don't use either additive, and use other techniques to achieve their purpose i have better powder.
the premise that grinding does nothing is balderdash! all powder is ground from cake. how fine the grind makes the difference.

 

[NorthFork]

Where the heck is Zonie when you need him!!??

Don't tell me, I know, may he rest in peace.

 

[Dude]

Well, ok - I guess that just about puts a wrap on this thread.

And there you have your answer! It could be dangerous grinding your powder, though that's how it was made in the first place. But hey, we all know the powder factories blew up multiple times, so it's gotta be dangerous. And, it doesn't make a dam bit of difference grinding it smaller because it'll have no effect anyway - even though smaller particles are spec'd for smaller guns, and real small particles are normally recommended for pan priming. Even though you grind your own, it won't work as well as factory bought...

Sometimes I wonder if there are special individuals taking on the chore of steering the uninitiated away from the do-it-yourself path of independence with fear tactics.

There was a fear I had of black powder guns - not wanting to wash after shooting because I 'knew' it was going to rust away. You know, guns and water don't mix! I'll bet a lot of guys never shot their black powder guns because they didn't want to wreck their pretty firearm. Just another fear.

Everything in life has some danger. The trick is understanding the mechanics and problems associated with whatever action you're taking on and dealing with them. Yeah, kids have lost fingers playing with fireworks, and a guy flew his lawn chair over the Los Angeles airport and would have been lost over the ocean had the airport controllers not spotted him. Some experiments (not knowing all the dynamics, or starting out small) can lead to big trouble. But grinding powder - come on. As far as I can tell, there's been no reported injuries from that particular action. Any close calls???

Ok - so this question has been kicked around before. Far as I can tell, it's been kicked long enough this time to figure out what's what.

 

[Frontier's]

I'm 75lbs into grinding. Never a dangerous moment.

Works just as good as factory, maybe better as I get rid of the glaze.

 

[jfaldo]

Learn about and make some yourself and you will quickly learn conventional wisdom does not necessarily dictate how the powder is going to react like you think it will. I have a batch of milled powder right now that burns like a fuse. After pucking (six tons of compression) and corning to 3f grade it burns instantaneously when lit. I've learned a ton of knowledge about black powder that I never would of guessed until I made my own.