Group Size?

[Adirondackman]

What do you guys consider an accurate group size for hunting at 50 - 60 yards?

 

[boar]

We use a target made from a paper disk that they use for gas meters with a red dot in center big as a silver dollar. At that distance you should hit it. For deer I shoot 50yrds then go back 90 yds and shoot. This gives you a good idea were your gun will hit a deer. The longest shot I made on groundhog was 72yrds with a standing rest,He was standing on mound. Iused a TC 54 cap Hawken 42grs 530 PB ball, pumped right thru him. Killed him deader than a wedge. Always bench rest your gun to git it shooting dead on. From the bench you should have holes touching at 50yrds. I use 3fff up to 50, then use 2ff. My buddy talked me in using 3fff in my TC50 .I was shooting 100 grs with max-hunter. I used 85grs 3fff. It was fine at 50yds, but when I went back 90yrds it hit the dirt at bottom of target. I went to house got 2ff and put one in coffee can lid at 90 with 100grs 2ff. This was a flinter,TC hawken. Dilly

 

[MikeChapin]

I usually sight my hunting loads at 100 yards. I can get those to 2.5" to 3" off a bench. That is my maximum range for hunting with BP and can only think of a few times when I actually had to shoot at that range. Most of the time it was at the ranges you are talking about.

At 50 yards that load will put five shots touching at off the bench.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Find ya a prairie dog town, and go out on Sunday afternoon and kill them prairie rats. You never know where one is gonna pop up. When you get closely enough acquainted with your rifle that you can hit them rats wherever they pop up, then you are ready to go deer huntin.

 

[BrownBear]

My range limit is wherever I can keep a 3" group. That's going to be closer for offhand than from a rest. As others have said, lots of shooting will build your skills, and for offhand shooting the bigger limit is likely to be on your skill and not on the grouping ability of your rifle. If your offhand range is only 40 yards, so be it, even if you can thump all of them into 3" at 100 yards from a rest. All that tells you is that if the range stretches beyond 40 yards, find a rest. If you want to stretch that offhand range, do it by practicing between seasons and not by sending hope shots during the hunting season.

Bottom line, take that rifle out and shoot it lots offhand. Sure, sit down at a rest and find out how far away you can manage a 3" group, but then get backup off your hiney and keep shooting offhand. That's going to have more impact on your hunting group size than buying a new gun or adjusting loads.

 

[Blackfoot]

I really want the bullets to touch at 50 yards and that is what I acheived with my blue ridge .50 cal flint.

 

[roo shooter]

If my 50 yard groups are 2 inch and under(of the bench) then I will use it for hunting,but the tighter the group the better.

 

[Stumpkiller]

At 60 yards I'd be satisfied if I could stand unsupported and put five shots in 4". On my best of days I can do three shots in 2" with a percussion, or 3" with a flinter, offhand. I'd still hunt with a rifle that did 8" at 60 yards, but would not be satisfied and would probably pass on the less than perfect opportunities. As with archery, your maximum range should be the distance you can put EVERY shot in a 10" paper dinner plate under hunting conditions. That is, kneeling, offhand, leaning up against a tree, etc.

I don't carry a benchrest with me while hunting so I don't practice from one once I have a load worked up and the sights tuned to it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree with Stumpy on this, but I don't worry so much about a 5 shot group, as I am not likely to get an opportunity to shoot five shots at one deer! However, we are talking about measuring your consistent accuracy with a chosen firearm at a known distance. A 4 inch group fired off-hand is pretty good shooting, particularly if you can do it when you are out of breath! At 50 yds, I like the gun to be capable of shooting 2 inches or less for 3 Shots, preferrable with them touching off the bench. Standing, if I can shoot them into 2 1/2-3 inches, I am going to get my deer. Having said that, I have only killed two deer shooting entirely offhand. One was only about 2 yards from me. The other was at 40 yds. All the rest I have been able to use a tree or branch to rest the gun and take careful aim. Those shots went exactly where I aimed, just as if I was shooting off the bench.

 

[ronrryan]

The great Francis Sell, writing on deer hunting, said if you could hit your hat, offhand, every time, under all conditions of weather and stress, that was your deer hunting range. Where I used to hunt in New York, that was probably no more than fifty yards, with an occasional longer 75-80 yarder which would allow for more time, better rest, etc. Good smoke, Ron in FL

 

[Slamfire]

I prefer what I call a one shot group. Every day I fire one shot from a clean cold barrel. If I can keep them on an 8" paper plate, I figure I'm good at that range. When the shots start missin', I reckon I'd better not shoot at that range. :v

 

[biliff]

Assuming you're talking deer hunting, I'm happy with

 

[rabbit03]

I would consider 1 1/2 inches to be maximum.

My thoughts are why settle for less than you are able to do at the target range!

rabbit03

 

[paulvallandigham]

Francis Sell used a bolt action rifle, after using a lever action rifle for years, killing deer for logging camps in the Northwest woods. He could talk in those terms because he had a quick second shot. He got lots of practice, shooting more than one deer in a location, without restrictions as to sex, or age, or length of antlers. Those days are gone.

For muzzleloading hunters, they probably never were. I think you need to be able to shoot better than the size of a hat- I have a large head- to be a conscientious hunter with a BP rifle these days. You are most likely only going to get one shot when the deer is on its feet, two maybe if you miss cleanly, and the deer cannot locate you.

I was a deer checker for a couple of seasons back in the late 1960s, and saw a lot of deer brought in with hits all over the bodies. Most of the shooters were using shotguns and shotgun slugs- mandated by law- but had not bothered to put a rear sight on the gun, much less attempted to sight in a particular slug. They shot whatever they could buy cheapest! Those guys could barely expect to hit a Sombrero at 50 yds with their guns, standing! But, even in the second year I was checking deer, I began to see more and more guns with rear sights on them, a testament to the ethics of hunters who realize the inadequacy of their equipment, and try to make improvements. I had only 3 hunters come in with one shot kills, and all had scopes on their guns. One killed his deer as it stood directly below him under his tree stand. He complained that the deer was too close to get a good focus with his scope, so he took a shot for the middle of the shoulder blades, and the slug went through them, and the spine, and dropped the deer where it stood. He had to step over it to get out of his tree stand. He told me he was going to build a ML rifle from a kit that winter to put the sport back into deer hunting.

I think any ML shooter today will want to be able to shoot no more than a 6 inch group for 5 shots off-hand at whatever range he chooses- particularly if he is expecting 60 yd shots. Then, if trees are thin and far between where he hunts, he will take a walking stick and use it as a rest when he shoots, to cut that group size down. I believe Francis Sell would approve. I also think he would marvel at how accurate guns are today, both MLs, and cartridge guns. The scopes in his day left much to be desired, and I think he would be tickled half to death seeing and shooting some of the optics now available.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The great Francis Sell, writing on deer hunting, said if you could hit your hat, offhand, every time, under all conditions of weather and stress, that was your deer hunting range.

Ah. That explains those outlandish Texas cowboy hats. :haha:

I agree with Stumpy on this, but I don't worry so much about a 5 shot group, as I am not likely to get an opportunity to shoot five shots at one deer!

That's true, but you only get the one shot and you have to have exhibited consistancy in your form and aim to have the mental confidence that your one shot will be true. Weeks before bowhunting I will shoot one arrow every morning before I leave for work. Just one, and at varying ranges. You're kidding yourself if you shoot 24 times and are satisfied because the last six were in a tight group. The first arrow, or ball, is the one that counts.

 

[ronrryan]

Paul, I deeply respect your expertise and value your opinion, but as to shotgun killed deer, I must say it might have to do with the junter. I hunted in shotgun-only deer areas in New York for twenty or thirty years, with four or five other regulars, always on the same private acreage. I have shot a couple dozen deer myself with a shotgun, usually with open sights, sometimes a peep, and have seen and helped drag and butcher several dozens of others. Ninety percent plus were one shot kills. The ranges were short and the hunters experienced, which counts for something. My guess is that Sell's hat was a fedora, judging by a picture of him I saw once. Good smoke, ron in FL

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ron: There is the rub of Sell's statement. At what range can you hit your hat- okay, lets assume its a fedora- every time? I have no doubt that the majority of Francis Sell's shots were at deer standing at less than 50 yds. Most of the deer checked into my check station were well shot, but so many werer riddled with slug holes that it was a shame. The next year, 1969, saw a significant improvement in the quality of sights that we saw on the guns, and there were fewer carcasses brought to the check station with multiple holes in them.

When I began hunting several years later, the one shot kills mounted , and the guns being used started sporting special slug barrels with iron sights already mounted on them. Within a few years, The Hastings barrel came on the market, and we started seeing these rifled barrels, with scope on them, and deer were still being taken with one shot, but the shots were often a little longer, indicating that the scopes were making it possible for hunters to comfortably shoot deer at longer distances. So, I think my experiences are similar to your own. I fired three shots out of my slug barrel at a 50 yd. target for a friend, and then let him shoot the next 2 rounds. My three slugs were touching, in the X ring, and his two were only an inch higher and still in the X ring, for a group that would easily fit in the palm of your hand. Obviously, we see the sights differently, and I knew my own gun better than he could know it, accounting for the wider group he fired. With that gun, and ammo, I believe I could reliably hit my hat out to 80 yds, and probably then some. I am working on that performance with my 20 ga. Fowler, and hope to have some good targets to show someday soon. Since the longest shot I have ever taken on a deer was at 40 yds., I don't think it necessary to be able to shoot that well at twice the distance. And, if your experience is correct, most other hunters still kill their deer in thick cover, at relatively short ranges.

Paul

 

[ronrryan]

Paul, yes to all. I hardly wished to appear argumentative. We carefully sighted in Shotguns and, where appropriate, rifles. And Sell used to spend time writing about "snapshooting" a good deal, which probably had to do with his practice of stillhunting in heavy cover , where he was expecting to shoot at deer that were "jumped" at short ranges. I have never felt competent to shoot well on running deer, and usually was moving so slowly that I was fortunate enough to take shots at slowly moving deer unaware of my presence. They normally just fell over, or made ten or twenty yards before expiring. My great regret is that I have never taken a deer with my flintlock, but--maybe next year! Good smoke, Ron in FL

 

[PreglerD]

Tested my cal.54 Investarms Hawken today at a range of 50 yards with 3 shots, 410 grs minie-bullet selfcast, 75 grs swiss No.2 (like fffg). Got a group of 35 mm. Thats enough accuracy for forest hunting on roes.

Greetings from Germany

Kirrmeister

 

[ronrryan]

Kirrmeister, if that was offhand shooting at 50 yards, you should be eating roebuck for a long while! Good luck, ron in FL