Gun Kits, ADifferent Twist

[FishDFly]

I see a considerable number of folks asking about putting together gun kits from some of the better kit makers.

From my reading here the number of hours required to put together a kit is 120 to 160 hours or so, if you have the talent.

A person needs to know how to use a drill, tap and die set and lots of other tools, both hand and electric to accomplish the tasks along with shaping wood and metal and finishing wood and metal. Then there is lock and trigger mechanics which need to be mastered. Gun design another requirement.

My question is, seems like years ago folks made their living with their hands, they were machinists or trade folks. Today folks do not make a living with their hands and lack hand working skills and an understanding of mechanics.

Will kits go away and "in the white guns" from Tip Curtis and others become the standard versus those who understand making things with their hands?

There are three things required to make things, time, tools and talent, I lack two (2) of them.

Where is the industry headed?

 

[necchi]

Today folks do not make a living with their hands and lack hand working skills and an understanding of mechanics.

That's using kind of a broad brush,

There are many-many trades today that serve all parts of our culture and society that still have not only master trades and craftsmen but entry level as well.
The many Vocational/Technical Colleges across the nation as evidence that many still seek these skills.

The plumber, the carpenter, the doctor, the banker,, all may or may not have hobbies and pass times that include hand crafts.
I happen to know a Neurosurgeon and a Bank President that are both wood carvers,,
and I also know a Chef that doesn't know the difference between a cresent wrench and vice grip!

While your right in that there are folks that don't understand, I believe that just about anyone that applies themselves to the task at hand are capable, with each developing the skill set at their own pace. And others just don't have an interest in learning the skills.

I don't think the "industry" is going to change much at all, it's just that there has become a market that folks have filled for just about every level rifle building desire.
From basic wood blanks and lock kit's to
completed guns.

I don't think there are many that are going chop down a tree, cut the blanks and while the wood seasons, forge the lock parts and turn a barrel.
But hasn't history shown that few did that even in the prime of Golden age rifle making?

 

[nchawkeye]

"Kits" today are light years ahead of what we had years ago...Back in the 80s I made a flintlock that had the stock roughed out, barrel channel routed out and the ramrod hole drilled, that was it...

It took me 2 years and over 200 hours to finish but I'm still using her so it was time well spent...I thought all men could work with their hands, the things you mention are simple tasks in my opinion...

 

[Erzulis boat]

"Kits" won't die out.

I am willing to bet most guys don't buy the whole kit initially, but purchase the components one by one. They still end up with all the parts listed in the kit, but start with the stock or the lock for example.

As long as we can pretend we only spent a "couple hundred bucks" to build the rifle it seems reasonable. I think the most I ever spent was $250.00 to build a rifle :grin:

If the components were only sold as a package deal, a LOT less guys would be building IMO.

Maybe we should have a poll- Who builds part by part, or buys the whole kit at once. It's not like we don't know what parts are needed!

 

[FishDFly]

...I thought all men could work with their hands, the things you mention are simple tasks in my opinion.


You are incorrect, a skilled surgeon and a machinist each work with their hands, do you want a machinist putting in your stints?

I have an ex-son-in-law who can not change a tire on his car when it's flat and get the flat tire to the repair place.

I have had workers who can not do the four functions of math nor read a ruler.

I have had workers who cannot read, if you can not read and you cannot follow simple written instructions you are in deep trouble.

The reason I asked my question, I see a lot of questions here asking how do I load my gun and how do I clean my gun. If you cannot load and clean your gun, how do you put together a kit which requires talent and skill?

Seems to me, folks who can work with their hands are not around anymore.

I know my limitations at things and where I excel.

I read M.D. and others and envy them for their knowledge and talent. I thank them for what they share with others who are not talented.

I still think for the most part craftsman are dying out.

 

[frogwalking]

Perhaps that is my problem. I am somewhat of a craftsman, if a jack-of-all-trades, and I do find myself kind of dying out.....

 

[user 922]

I don't get your point, Richard. Are you demeaning those people who aren't mechanically inclined? Well, we still need accountants, lawyers, medical doctors (analytical), truck drivers and others who may not know how to change a light bulb but are still valuable contributors to the human race. Being able to understand mechanics and make things is a great gift but doesn't elevate one over anyone else.

 

[msuspartan]

Here is another view to this thread.

I am 52 and saw first hand what happened to Jerry Eder and his dementia. It was a tragedy to watch him decline and the loss of all that experience. (GOD gets to view it now.)

Here is my point. I went to another Gentleman (John Schippers) who I knew and told him that his experience will be forever lost if he teaches no one. He saw my point and I go on Fridays an I learn from him.

We 'die' out because no one (many times) will teach others how to do the building of rifles. Talent is always there but experience is time and effort.

Like Mr. Schippers said 'I can teach ANYONE to engrave but it takes TIME to know WHAT to engrave'.

Reach out to a builder or someone who wishes to learn. Share your knowledge. They will forever be grateful.

Just some thoughts.

 

[54ball]

I guess a lot of this has to do with laziness. Many people do not have to do for themselves so they don't.

But....

To say someone can not accomplish a task or master a skill at least to a functional degree because they are not artistically or mechanically inclined is a cop out.

If a person who really, truly wants to learn a skill they can. If they can't, they did not want it bad enough.

 

[Bruce Bogart]

I believe there are a large number of people that prefer to NOT work at anything that takes time to learn how to accomplish. Whether it be from fear of turning out an ineffective, or ugly (my case) final product for all the world to see. AND some just do not have the patience or time to spend. There are others that only prefer focus on doing what they are comfortable. Everyone enjoys it differently. Craftsmen are still out there, you just have to look for them. I am suprised at the number of guys building these old guns, and many of them doing it rather well.Maybe someday I can too.

 

[Adui]

I guess a lot of this has to do with laziness. Many people do not have to do for themselves so they don't.

I can see this in many people. Myself included to a degree. However, I enjoy working with my hands and building things. THE only reason I dont buy a kit rifle is I have precious little money to spend and the places I have seen kits offered this day and age charge within $10 of the professionally finished product for a kit. (Sometimes more than the finished product) I know I need practice, I know Im going to make mistakes on the first build that will make it a lower quality gun than I can get out of even a factory gun in some ways. (Cosmetically mostly) Why would I spend that much on a kit, and then the $50 to $100 more in materials to build it right when I can get the finished product for essentially less money.

Now that said, I can answer my own question for some. IF I had disposable money to spend I would buy a kit just for the experience. (And some day I will buy a kit just for the experience. I really REALLY enjoyed rebuilding my colt kit revolver that I screwed up so many years ago) BUT it will have to wait till I truly have DISPOSABLE money because Im not buying a kit to have a shooter, which is what I want in my next purchase. I'm buying a kit to have the experience in building it and hoping I can do a good enough job to have a shooter when I am done.

The short version: it costs as much or more to have a kit that contains the same parts that a finished gun from the same company already has. Most people are frugal these days and will buy the lower costing finished rifle every time.

 

[54ball]

Please do not misunderstand.

If someone wants a fine longrifle or black powder gun, they should take the steps and find a way to buy one. If someone wants to build a fine rifle or gun, they should take the steps to learn a craft and build one.

You can have both, wanting a fine gun and learning to build a fine gun. One should not justify the other though, like building a gun because you want it.

You build a gun because you want to build a rifle or gun.

All I'm saying is if someone wants to learn a skill or several skills and has the desire and true interest to build a gun, they should do so and not look for excuses like I'm not artistically or mechanically inclined. That can be overcome.

It's called practice.

 

[Swamp Rat]

So very true. I'm finding my parts gun is probably going to run higher because of tools I don't have already.
I'm a desk jockey geek at work / Hobby wood worker turning my Daddy was a machinist and taught me some when growing up. I'm building my gun now and let me tell you my hands are sore right now and still have almost 5/32" to drop the tang down. Even hurts to type this. LOL. I'm going slow and trying to do good workmanship as this will probably be the only one I build.
I watched a video on youtube that was of the guys at Williamsburg gunshop a PBS show. It showed them forging the barrel to finished gun. I shared with my buddies and he wrote back, "Those were Men back then" I wrote him back "No those were Craftsmen back then". (Oh by the way the video was taken down a day later) I sure would love to watch that video a few more times, only got to see it once.
OH and the experience doing this is priceless because you do not appreciate it until you do it.

 

[SuperKirby]

I pondered kind of this same thing awhile. I do think it's a slowly dying art. How many that build guns have kids that want to continue to do so? Or know a younger person that wants you to teach them? In general traditional muzzleloaders are losing popularity with younger people, so building them is going with it.

Around a year ago I started thinking about building. I figured "Hey, I like to build things. I'm not overly good at it, but with patience and time I can turn out a usable product." I thought it would be awesome to build myself a gun, cast my own projectile, and harvest a deer from our farm. The whole self-sufficient thing. I figured it would probably take me a year to build one. I could use that practice and then proceed to build each of my three kids one over the years and have them done by the time they're old enough to hunt. My oldest is about to turn 6 so I have some time.
What I concluded was that it's far too expensive of a venture to undertake on my own. For at least the first time I wouldn't feel comfortable with an undertaking of this magnitude. I decided that I was better to stick with more modern options and pass those on to my kids, figuring it's at least some form of muzzleloading.
I still look around and will someday hopefully find someone close enough with the time, patience, and willingness to teach a newbie the basics. If that ever happens I will sell my modern arms to fund it and jump at the opportunity. But in the mean time I will stop in here on occasion and see all the beautiful work others are turning out.

 

[Vaino]

Different people have different degrees of talents or the complete lack thereof...and we should realize out abilities and shortcomings....or one can lead a very troubled life.

Motivation plays an important role in any endeavor and to build MLers whether from a parts set {kit} or from scratch requires " badly wanting this to happen" to a serious degree. Some don't want or some don't have this motivation.....calling this laziness" displays a total lack of understanding.

Many professional and business people who have attained success spent a lot of time doing it....there was no "leftover time" to pursue any kind of a hobby. Perhaps this success enables them to now buy whatever thay want?

We who are into MLers are pursuing a "hobby" or when building, produce guns wanted by people in this "hobby"....which can create a mindset whereby the focus is so great that we find ourselves in our own little "bubble". This "bubble" protects us from differing opinions.....not a good thing.

People w/ their differing capabilites, talents and motivations compose extremely complicated circumstances.....and realizing one's shortcomings or positive attributes is just facing reality.....Fred

 

[user 922]

I guess a lot of this has to do with laziness. Many people do not have to do for themselves so they don't.

But....

To say someone can not accomplish a task or master a skill at least to a functional degree because they are not artistically or mechanically inclined is a cop out.

If a person who really, truly wants to learn a skill they can. If they can't, they did not want it bad enough.

Nonsense. You're implying that anyone could become a great artist, singer, or musician if he or she tried hard enough. I don't believe that for one minute. The same goes for mechanical skills.

 

[jamesthomas]

Don't let the price of a good kit rifle stop you. If you take your time you can buy the parts separate. Write down all the parts of the kit then just save whatever you can and buy the parts every month or 2. That's what I plan on doing for a .40 caliber pistol kit and a 20ga. smoothbore down the road. The only expensive parts are the barrel an lock and maybe the stock if want a fancy maple one.

 

[SuperKirby]

I guess a lot of this has to do with laziness. Many people do not have to do for themselves so they don't.

But....

To say someone can not accomplish a task or master a skill at least to a functional degree because they are not artistically or mechanically inclined is a cop out.

If a person who really, truly wants to learn a skill they can. If they can't, they did not want it bad enough.

Nonsense. You're implying that anyone could become a great artist, singer, or musician if he or she tried hard enough. I don't believe that for one minute. The same goes for mechanical skills.

I am not very artistic. My wife is, especially when you put a camera in her hands. I can take a picture of something and it looks like a snapshot. She can take a picture of the same thing with the same camera and she sees it from a slightly different angle with different light and it becomes art. I think that's the difference between completing a task and mastering the art. Anyone can buy a kit, screw it together, and finish it. Some people have a God-given knack for finishing the same kit into a piece of art.

Just my opinion...

 

[Brian6396]

This debate I have a personal interest in. Being new to this hobby and lacking disposable income I must plan and save for purchases. Economics must be considered as part of the entire package. My delema is weighing the benifits of selecting quality individaul parts vs a less expensive production kit that could be customized to my taste.
and the debate rages on...

 

[SuperKirby]

I have had my eye on the Hawken Halfstock kit from Pecatonica for at least a year, maybe more. I have almost bought it a few different times. Every time I get ready to buy it someone tells me it's beyond my abilities for a first attempt. I'm not sure I'm confident in my abilities to try it on my own.
I'm hoping someday I'll find someone that knows what they're doing that will agree to weekly lessons or something and guide me through it. I don't think it will happen but I'm holding out hope.