Gun used in movie Jerimiah Johnson?

[tiger955]

I recently watched this movie again and noticed an unusual weapon early in the movie. When JJ is trying to catch a fish and he first meets Paints His Shirt Red, the indian has a gun across his saddle. From the quick look you get of the muzzle, it appears to be some sort of double barrel with a rifle on one side and shotgun on the other. Does any one know of such a weapon being used in those days? Or is this just another Hollywood screw up in the movie like the reference to the .30 caliber Hawken?
I do know combo rifle/ shotguns were made in later years (I even have one) and are actually quite common in Europe.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Of course, it is possible. Likey? No. Many guns of all kinds have come from Europe since ocean trade began. Do consider it a Hollywood faux pax.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I'd think it was a Hollywood screw up. Won't think a guy headed into the mountains would take a 30 cal ML. Not the ideal weapon to shoot bears, indians or anything found in the mountains for that matter. Had they used a 45, it would have been more believeable.

 

[justtim]

As I remember , according to the book it was a .30 rifle. That's all he could get. Have to remember, the Hawkin Brothers came from the East. (Harpers Ferry if I remember right) and back in the East, small caliber guns were in favor at that time period. All the big game in the East was killed off and big bores were no longer needed. I'm sure the Hawkins would have had some small caliber guns in stock so to speak when they went West. Of course out there the big bores were still needed for the big game there. Remember, in the movie he was having trouble killing big game with his small bore gun and then he found Hatchet Jack and his gun. Life got better after that

 

[Mike Brooks]

Hawkins was the name of the kid on treasure island. Hawken was the name of the gunbuilding bros. in St. Louis.

 

[Greenmtnboy]

it's a swivel gun.

 

[tiger955]

Ahhh, swivel gun, never thought of that, thanks.
Seems unusual an Indian would have one as they were much more expensive than the normal trade gun as much as I am aware of. But then again, he was a chief so it stands to reason he would likely have the best available through trade with his tribe.

 

[flintlock75]

There was a movie that was made in the 50s that had Kirk Douglas in it and Bobby Daren, i cant remember the name of it, they were going up the Mosurri ? river, the charecter Bobby played carried a swivel breach double and used it very well, i think it was a rifle smoothbore combo. This might have been the same gun used in the later JJ movie.

 

[tg]

"Seems unusual an Indian would have one as they were much more expensive than the normal trade gun as much as I am aware of.'

The hair of the original owner of the gun may have been hanging from the belt of the Indian who now had the gun?

 

[tiger955]

Good point tg :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Ahhh, swivel gun, never thought of that, thanks.
Seems unusual an Indian would have one as they were much more expensive than the normal trade gun as much as I am aware of. But then again, he was a chief so it stands to reason he would likely have the best available through trade with his tribe.

Actually, the English were making an over/under for the high end NDN trade After 1800.....I think at the time of the war o 1812. These were given as gifts for allied chiefs.

 

[pargent]

He may have also had the scalp to go with the fancy gun :thumbsup:

 

[Snow on the Roof]

it's a swivel gun.

That was always my impression...as to its origin, that is left up to the viewer to consider. :hmm: :hmm

Snow

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

The movie you were thinking of was "The Big Sky." I have been looking for a DVD, in black/white, of that movie for months.

 

[wolffeone]

It was Kirk Douglas and Dewey Martin

 

[mhb]

I don't think it was a swivel/turnover gun. In fact, I took special notice of it because it looked just like the side-by-side rifle-shotgun combo I had at the time: that one was made by Nelson Lewis probably before 1860. Others of the type are not uncommon, and several are illustrated in Ned Roberts' book 'The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle'. They were more common in the East, but several American makers built them, probably beginning in the early '40s, and, since Jeremiah Johnson apparently was a veteran of the Mexican War, there is no reason why such a piece would not have found its way to the possession of an Indian in the West, one way or another...
mhb - Mike

 

[pargent]

I am not 100% sure but i may have seen a photo of this gun in one of sam fadalas books

 

[nchawkeye]

I suspect the reference to .30 caliber should have been 30 bore...

 

[tg]

The early 18th century French nomenclature was like a 28 calibre gun was a 28 balls to the livre (French lb) a gun could have been ment to be a 30 balls to the lb which can be read two ways either a bore size that would allow one to shoot that ball size or a bore that was the same as that ball size,and shot a smaller bal, the latter was probably the standard after 1800

 

[Maestro]

... 28 balls to the livre (French lb)...

I thought it came from the Latin "libra" meaning "scale" (French "livre" means "book") - but I could be mistaken.