Had Some real problems

[Michael76]

I had some real problems with my Traditions Springfield Hawkens rifle on my last hunting trip :idunno: The rifle has 1/48 twist , 28 long barrel , I use Pirodex 90grains , shooting a 275 gain Maxi ball.condom over the barrel , rubber gascet over the cap/nipple.

The weather was raining 45 the first day ,Sunny 45 the secound and same for the third day.

my problem was that I could not get the rifle to shoot !! I had to pour some powder down the nipple hole to get it to go off. needless to say I was not happy . After the fist shot everything was fine but getting that first shot to fire was a problem. I don't know if I am useing a crappy rifle or what.
Any Ideas!! :idunno:

 

[BrownBear]

I doubt it's a bum rifle, if you haven't had this trouble before now. I'm wondering if the flame channel or nipple was clogged somehow. I always fire a cap just to make sure its clear before loading a clean barrel. Aim the muzzle at a blade of grass or a leaf to make sure the cap blast gets all the way out the muzzle. Maybe that's the explanation, because I've never had to deal with what you experienced. And we get 120" of rain a year!!!! If you're already doing that, I'm stuck.

 

[Mattole]

As BrownBear says, make sure the way is clear!

Another suggestion would be to rap the barrel a few times on the side opposite the nipple after you pour the powder down the barrel, to make sure that powder goes into the area beneath the nipple.

You might also try changing nipples to something like an Ampco, which has a good reputation for helping to provide consistent ignition. I just switched my Investarms Hawken factory nipple to an Ampco and it made a big difference.

Finally, make sure that there isn't excess lube or whatever you use to protect your barrel affecting the powder your percussion cap needs to ignite on that first shot.

 

It might be something as simple as not cleaning all the oil, from a previous cleaning, out of the breach and contaminating the powder charge. Run an alchohol soaked patch down the bore and then fire a cap, or two, prior to loading.
Mark

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

You didn't mention which granulation of Pyrodex. If it was 2F Pyro, you might want to consider switching to Pyro "P", since it's smaller grains will get all of the way down underneath the nipples of most guns. Didn't say how old the Pyro was that you're using...although you did mention that once it went bang the other loads did fire.

Humidity can wreak havoc on the subs. So can a clogged flash channel from too much oil in the breech due to being stored muzzle-up instead of muzzle-down! Storing muzzle-down prevents an accumulation of oil from flowing down into the flash channel during storage.

This is all I can add at this time. Brown Bear covered the rest.

Dave

 

[necchi]

Like everyone is saying, those breeches are a booger to keep clean. It can be done easy enough but you really gotta do the job well, all the right angles in the breech system can easily leed to fouling accumulation.

 

[2Barrel]

Man. Ya gotta hand it to necci. Always has pictures, schematics and drawings to help others. :hatsoff:

 

[texcl]

You need to find real black powder, I've had nothing but problems with pyrodex, espeacially in wet weather. I remember a hunt where I used pyro in NC and it rained like the dickens and became real humid, now mind you I wasn't in the rain directly. When I went to fire my 3 bander enfield it went off and the minie ball popped out of the barrel and fizzled on the ground, never seen anything like it. Reloaded it with similar results. I switched to black powder and never looked back, it is better than the subs in every way, I have never had ignition issues with black powder in any of my guns. One thing though you need to wipe your bore dry and forcefully blow air out the nipple with the patched jag, then you need to fire a couple of caps through the gun with the muzzle aimed at a leaf or blades of grass to ensure that the flash channel is clear and any lube has been blown out. Then load it.

 

[J.D.]

If your gun was left loaded over those few days,condensation might have contaminated the powder. IMHO, Pyro is more hygroscopic than black, and will deteriorate rather quickly. Black will usually shoot just fine when it dries out...depending on how wet it got, but pyro will not.

 

[playfarmers]

I second the "GET REAL BLACK POWDER" I used to use Pyrodex, and had very few problems. After switching to real black powder I have no problems with ignition and clean up is faster too. I never did use the nipple that came with my Lyman, I put an Ampco on before I even tried the rifle.

 

[Michael76]

Thanks guys I'll get some "real" Black powder and give it a try.

 

[paulvallandigham]

It helps a lot in increasing your confidence( and knowledge) about your gun, if you PRACTICE shooting in bad weather- at the club range, or in your back yard, shooting blanks. Most shooters only show up at my club when the weather is Nice.

Years ago, I purposely sponsored a New Year's Day Shoot at the club, where I set the course of fire, provided the refreshments, took in the fees, and paid out the prizes. My purpose was to give the members an excuse to get out of bed by NOON, after a long New Year's Eve, and come down to shoot a short course in COLD WEATHER. I wanted the members to learn a LOT about Cold Weather shooting with Black powder. They did, altho' it took several years to get a sizable crowd to the event. The first couple of years, they thought I was kidding! My original course of fire was only 3 shots, off-hand, at 50 yard targets. We used BIG bullseye targets for the shoot. I think I charged a $1.00 entry fee, and we split the money between the club and the winner. When I got more than 5 shooters, I paid some to second place, as well as to the winner. For ever five shooters after that, I paid another place. Finally, one cold Jan. 1, we had more than 20 shooters show up for the event. It was the highest number of shooters to show up at any of the club's monthly events, or special events all that year!

My goal was always to have the members learn what patch lube to use, the need to flush oils out of the barrels and flash channels with alcohol, how to load without freezing bare fingers to the barrel, etc. We took more than one rifle into the shooting shed to thaw next to the stove, so that we could clear the barrel or action, and get the gun serviceable again.

These are not skills you want to be "learning" for the first time when you are out hunting. :shocked2: :nono: :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

It helps a lot in increasing your confidence( and knowledge) about your gun, if you PRACTICE shooting in bad weather- at the club range, or in your back yard, shooting blanks. Most shooters only show up at my club when the weather is Nice.

Years ago, I purposely sponsored a New Year's Day Shoot at the club, where I set the course of fire, provided the refreshments, took in the fees, and paid out the prizes. My purpose was to give the members an excuse to get out of bed by NOON, after a long New Year's Eve, and come down to shoot a short course in COLD WEATHER. I wanted the members to learn a LOT about Cold Weather shooting with Black powder. They did, altho' it took several years to get a sizable crowd to the event. The first couple of years, they thought I was kidding! My original course of fire was only 3 shots, off-hand, at 50 yard targets. We used BIG bullseye targets for the shoot. I think I charged a $1.00 entry fee, and we split the money between the club and the winner. When I got more than 5 shooters, I paid some to second place, as well as to the winner. For ever five shooters after that, I paid another place. Finally, one cold Jan. 1, we had more than 20 shooters show up for the event. It was the highest number of shooters to show up at any of the club's monthly events, or special events all that year!

My goal was always to have the members learn what patch lube to use, the need to flush oils out of the barrels and flash channels with alcohol, how to load without freezing bare fingers to the barrel, etc. We took more than one rifle into the shooting shed to thaw next to the stove, so that we could clear the barrel or action, and get the gun serviceable again.

These are not skills you want to be "learning" for the first time when you are out hunting. :shocked2: :nono: :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

That's a great post! And the highlighted area can be applied to anything that you hunt with! 70 degrees and sunny isn't the time to finalize your practice & sighting-in of a deer rifle! Overcoming the obstacles that are present when the rifle has to go BANG is the ONLY way to do it!

Great post Paul :thumbsup:

Dave

 

[rafterob]

I've shot my Traditions Hawken in the rain numerous times and never had a misfire-even with Pyrodex. I'm guessing it was oil in the nipple or flash channel as others have noted here. When loading up for hunting you want to pay extra care to those little details.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Yes you sure do! :thumbsup:

One of the clubs that I and my son belong to shoots in the rain and snow with flinters! The guys with cap locks that never get their guns cleaned right are the first to have problems! I oft times wonder why that is? :idunno:

Dave

 

[Bill Hall]

After reading all these posts, I gather that your Traditions is another version of CVA. (right?) My brother once owned a CVA mountain rifle and encountered the same problems you're describing. Shooting a blank before loading for hunting was the only way he could get the gun to fire reliably, but it often took two or three caps just to get the blank to fire (and this was with real black powder). I suspect it was mostly due to his cleaning methods, but when I took the breech apart to see what was going on, I found an inherently problematic design in the ignition system.

The Mountain Rifle did NOT have a breech like the one Necchi posted. It had a sub-chamber inside the plug, with a smallish hole that lead to the breech area. I would even say it had the perfect design to trap oil, moisture, and crud, that could block the cap flame from reaching the main charge. I did some smithing on it, and when finished , it did look exactly like Necchi's iilustration. Never had a misfire after that.

I wonder if your Traditions has the same problematic design I encountered with the Mountain Rifle. If so, I think the mis-fire problems can be overcome by using some of the cleaning methods previously suggested, without re-working the breechplug. If not already mentioned, I would also suggest finishing the cleaning process by pumping some denatured alcohol throught the flash channel, and then heating the breech area over a stove or hairdryer etc, to evaporate any trapped moisture in that sub-chamber. then, try to keep the breech area oil free until you put the gun away for a while. Hope this helps. Bill

 

[Zonie]

Speaking of oiling the gun after cleaning it, it is a good idea to store the gun muzzle down.
That way any oil will run out of the muzzle rather than running back into the small flame channel that connects the bore with the nipple.

Another comment about needing a percussion gun to fire on the first shot.

Before priming the gun after loading it, go ahead and pull the nipple and pour a little powder down the flame channel hole, reinstall the nipple and your all set. After capping the nipple, it should fire the first time the trigger is pulled.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Speaking of oiling the gun after cleaning it, it is a good idea to store the gun muzzle down.
That way any oil will run out of the muzzle rather than running back into the small flame channel that connects the bore with the nipple.

Another comment about needing a percussion gun to fire on the first shot.

Before priming the gun after loading it, go ahead and pull the nipple and pour a little powder down the flame channel hole, reinstall the nipple and your all set. After capping the nipple, it should fire the first time the trigger is pulled.

Or just use 3Fg Goex and rap the side of the barrel a couple times to settle the powder into the flash channel before loading the patch & ball. In my rifle I can see grains of powder at the nipple at the loading stage, so I don't have to unscrew the nipple to trickle the powder into the flash channel. I feel that you can damage the threads on the breech trying to screw-in a nipple into a pile of loose powder, or not fully seat the nipple into the breech threads, which could lead to the nipple flying down the firing line past the faces of the rest of the line of shooters so I recommend the barrel rap method first. Then unscrew the nipple if it won't fire. You can also use a nipple pick to ascertain whether or not you dry-balled at this juncture, which is more ofter the case :wink: . A friend of mine found all of this out the hard way, sending his nipple past our faces at a Rondy :shocked2: .

Dave

 

[Kapow]

My CVA mountain rifle plays up also. For hunting, a little powder under the nipple for the first shot is mandatory. After that it's all good. Which can only mean that I am getting the flash channel clogged after cleaning. I do pop a couple of caps prior to the first load of the day. The thompson centre I used to have never failed to go off which makes me think it is a design issue with the CVAs which must be overcome with a different cleaning/loading routine.

I did actually order an Ampco nipple but don't know anything about them and haven't used it yet. Can anyone enlighten me as to what makes them better?

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Those nipples direct the ignition of the cap into a tighter, more concentrated area, thus creating a hotter flame to ignite the main charge.

A pipe cleaner through the breech where the nipple screws in should come out oil-free. If not, there's your problem.

It's interesting to note that I deliberately SOAK my ignition pathway in Barricade! After a thorough cleaning, I reinstall the nipple. Then soak a couple of patches in Barricade. Then I spray liquid Barricade down the muzzle. Then I use the Range Rod with Barricade-soaked patches on a Worm to rapidly force liquid oil out the nipple! I store the rifle muzzle-down on a paper towel. The rifle keeps what it needs and the rest simply drips out onto the paper toweling. Barricade is a "light" oil that's designed to disperse water and prevent rust.

Sometimes I forget to run a dry patch down the bore prior to loading. In my rifle, it doesn't even matter, since I store it muzzle-down at all times :idunno: . I guess that I'm just lucky :idunno: .

I clean all of my rifles & ML 10 gauge the same way. When I run a patch down just prior to loading, they come-out practically oil-free and white in color. No failure to fire EVER. I guess that I'm doing something right.....

Good luck with your cleaning technique, and remember to invert the rifle to allow the oil to drain, and don't use a thick oil.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Dave