Halfstock, Flintlock Hawkens??

[Notchy Bob]

If you want a halfstock flintlock rifle, just build it. Call it a Plains Rifle. Here is a .58 that I built of proper Hawken parts, except the hand-sawed stock.
Here I am hunting mule deer with it.
Then emptying my rifle at the hillside. Hit it, too.
View attachment 122941View attachment 122942View attachment 122943
Then Carl and me with my buck.

I always enjoy Herb’s posts! Nobody knows more about original Hawkens.

Good shot on that hillside! That’s a pretty nice buck, too…

The story of the rifle and your hunt would make a great article for one of the muzzleloading magazines or hunting journals.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Patched]

Here is a closer look at that flint rifle, then my copy of Jim Bridger's Hawken (been shot a couple thousand times), my brass mounted Hawken copy (original in Cody museum) and a St. Louis .40 squirrel rifle.
Then me hunting elk with my Bridger .54.View attachment 122968View attachment 122969

So awesome Herb…
That line up of rifles mimics my pile of muzzleloaders almost to a tee….except no yellow brass and no squirrel calibers….Outta the 6 halfstocks I own, I only refer to one as a ”Hawken”cuz GRRW called it that.
The others (scratch builds) are plains rifles built to my personal tastes incorporating many Hawken parts and style (corrected of course where I thought they got it wrong)
Beautiful work on your gun lineup.

 

[Herb]

Thanks, Notchy Bob. I did write that and it was published in Muzzleloader Magazine Jul-Aug 2015. The title was "A Diamond Mountain Mulle Deer Hunt in Utah". The editor didn't catch their misspelling. Two of the pictures here were in that article, plus this one shown next. I also wrote "A Utah Pronghorn Hunt" in the November-December 2019 issue, where I killed a 15 inch buck with a .50 "Hawken" fullstock percussion rifle I built with a 30-inch Rice Jaeger barrel. It was a good thing I had practiced shooting to 200 yards.............That is the muzzle of my rifle, I took the picture over the sights.

 

[Herb]

I don't know how to add this to my post, but I do not know much about original Hawken rifles. Some, yes. I know most about how to build close copies of them.

 

[longcruise]

I always love seeing your rifles, @Herb .

Herb, that hat would get you shot and mounted as a trophy by some of the yahoos that hunt here sometimes!

Hat!!??? I thought he was packing an animal out.

 

[flntlokr]

The short stock heavy 'plains rifles' were nothing new; they were just Jaegers in drag.

 

[pamtnman]

I have, and he doesn't use a ball exclusively. A "belted ball" is a bullet, and he loved that in his 10 bore when going after Elephants. He quickly gave up on Forsyth's exploding ball idea as being impractical and not always effective; and quickly found that a 10 bore with a belted ball was really the limit of what he was willing to consider using (he fired that 2 bore only a handful of times). By the late 1850's he was hunting almost everything with a .577, leaving his smaller bore rifles for the likes of Roe Deer, Rooks, Rabbits and such. He also complained about the 10 bore not having a satisfactory effect on big cats, despite it being able to almost fully penetrate a Cape Buffalo from head to tail. He also spends dozens of pages complaining about the lack of quality gunbearers and poorly trained mahouts and beaters.

Because all my Sir Samuel Baker books are in another location, I can’t copy them and post them here. However, Donald Dallas devotes space to Selous, Oswell, Stanley, and of course Baker:

 

[pamtnman]

Charles Hanson, Jr (“The Plains Rifle” 1960, which was recommended to me here several years ago and has proven to be an interesting resource) writes about early flintlock Hawken rifles:

 

[pamtnman]

I have, and he doesn't use a ball exclusively. A "belted ball" is a bullet, and he loved that in his 10 bore when going after Elephants. He quickly gave up on Forsyth's exploding ball idea as being impractical and not always effective; and quickly found that a 10 bore with a belted ball was really the limit of what he was willing to consider using (he fired that 2 bore only a handful of times). By the late 1850's he was hunting almost everything with a .577, leaving his smaller bore rifles for the likes of Roe Deer, Rooks, Rabbits and such. He also complained about the 10 bore not having a satisfactory effect on big cats, despite it being able to almost fully penetrate a Cape Buffalo from head to tail. He also spends dozens of pages complaining about the lack of quality gunbearers and poorly trained mahouts and beaters.

In Baker’s last book, Adventures..,, he concludes with a line that essentially says “Don’t go hunting with anything other than a .577 BPE double rifle.” He used one almost exclusively on his American West hunting trip. His wife used “the little Fletcher .577” for her own hunting. I’m like “Holy cow, this little lady casually hunted with a caliber many guys today consider to be overly punishing to shoot!”
So your memory about Baker and mine coincide on his admonition about the .577 BPE. But I think he used it only for deer, elk, bison etc Anyhow, nice to meet a fellow Baker fan!

 

[Notchy Bob]

Here's an original halfstocked flinter for consideration:

This is actually a "rifle mounted smoothbore," of about .58 caliber:

I'm guessing that rimfire cartridge casing on the end of the ramrod is a somewhat later replacement, although judging from the apparent caliber of it, and the square-headed crosspin, it has likely been there for a while.

Anyway, this one was built by John Derr of Berks County, Pennsylvania. It sold at auction in 2019 for $3,500, and no, I didn't buy it. You can read more about it here: John Derr Half-Stock It does appear to be an original half-stocked flintlock, but it isn't a Hawken.

Here is another old rifle to think about. This one is an early J&S Hawken fullstock, thought to be circa 1830:

This one is believed to have originally been a flintlock. In any event, the lock was originally flint. However, it is a fullstock.

There have been some terrific flintlock Hawken-styled half-stock rifles shown on this thread. Beautiful rifles and real game-getters. I would love to have any one of them. As Herb said, if you want one, build it! My only issue with halfstocked Hawken flintlocks is when or if they are presented as representing guns that actually existed. We just don't have a rifle, a written document, or unequivocal artwork (Rindisbacher notwithstanding) to support the existence of a half-stocked flintlock coming out of the Hawken shop.

Just for the sake of discussion, one other gentleman I don't think we've mentioned is John Palliser, an Irish sportsman who spent a couple of years on the northern plains of North America starting in the year 1847. His memoir, Solitary Rambles and Adventures of a Hunter, was published in 1853. It is a great read. In the dedication, pages 13-18, he discusses his equipment of choice, including his firearms. There is too much to quote here, but his first choice, as an indispensible big-game hunter's arm, was a smoothbored double of 14 to 12 gauge. Next in importance was a "...single-barreled two-grooved rifle...," which I would assume used a belted bullet as described above. A search of the book failed to reveal any specific mention of Hawken or "Hawkins" rifles at all. In reading the book, it was clear that Palliser was shooting percussion guns, although he was familiar with flintlocks and in fact recommended a "self-priming flintlock" as the best weapon for buffalo running.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[pamtnman]

Here's an original halfstocked flinter for consideration:

View attachment 123193

This is actually a "rifle mounted smoothbore," of about .58 caliber:

View attachment 123194

I'm guessing that rimfire cartridge casing on the end of the ramrod is a somewhat later replacement, although judging from the apparent caliber of it, and the square-headed crosspin, it has likely been there for a while.

Anyway, this one was built by John Derr of Berks County, Pennsylvania. It sold at auction in 2019 for $3,500, and no, I didn't buy it. You can read more about it here: John Derr Half-Stock It does appear to be an original half-stocked flintlock, but it isn't a Hawken.

Here is another old rifle to think about. This one is an early J&S Hawken fullstock, thought to be circa 1830:

View attachment 123195

This one is believed to have originally been a flintlock. In any event, the lock was originally flint. However, it is a fullstock.

There have been some terrific flintlock Hawken-styled half-stock rifles shown on this thread. Beautiful rifles and real game-getters. I would love to have any one of them. As Herb said, if you want one, build it! My only issue with halfstocked Hawken flintlocks is when or if they are presented as representing guns that actually existed. We just don't have a rifle, a written document, or unequivocal artwork (Rindisbacher notwithstanding) to support the existence of a half-stocked flintlock coming out of the Hawken shop.

Just for the sake of discussion, one other gentleman I don't think we've mentioned is John Palliser, an Irish sportsman who spent a couple of years on the northern plains of North America starting in the year 1847. His memoir, Solitary Rambles and Adventures of a Hunter, was published in 1853. It is a great read. In the dedication, pages 13-18, he discusses his equipment of choice, including his firearms. There is too much to quote here, but his first choice, as an indispensible big-game hunter's arm, was a smoothbored double of 14 to 12 gauge. Next in importance was a "...single-barreled two-grooved rifle...," which I would assume used a belted bullet as described above. A search of the book failed to reveal any specific mention of Hawken or "Hawkins" rifles at all. In reading the book, it was clear that Palliser was shooting percussion guns, although he was familiar with flintlocks and in fact recommended a "self-priming flintlock" as the best weapon for buffalo running.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Good stuff, Bob, thank you. Just tonight I was reading about Palliser in either the Hanson book or something similar. Hanson describes English Sporting Rifles as having very tight twist, which I have not heard of or encountered. Firearms development is probably a non-linear thing, and while it’s natural for people to want structure and logic, and narratives to go with them, the more I learn, the less cohesive rifle development seems. About the only way to have a historically accurate gun is to own one of the untouched originals, or have a faithful copy of one made. Everything else is just paying to get what we want, which works for me.

 

[Herb]

Bob, thanks for that Palliser refernce. I ordered the book.

 

[HighUintas]

@Notchy Bob , what fullstock JS Hawken is that? Is it a private owner or museum piece? I'd like to find some more information on it

 

[shorthair]

Because all my Sir Samuel Baker books are in another location, I can’t copy them and post them here. However, Donald Dallas devotes space to Selous, Oswell, Stanley, and of course Baker:
View attachment 123155View attachment 123156

I believe that Sir Samuel Baker nicknamed it " Baby" and said that he was spun around like a top with full loads, buy she was very effective on elephants.

 

[pamtnman]

I believe that Sir Samuel Baker nicknamed it " Baby" and said that he was spun around like a top with full loads, buy she was very effective on elephants.

That’s it. Can you imagine

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Notchy Bob , what fullstock JS Hawken is that? Is it a private owner or museum piece? I'd like to find some more information on it

@HighUintas

Thank you for your comments. I found that rifle listed for sale online: Circa 1830 J&S Hawken Fullstock Plains Rifle

I am not the seller or the buyer. I just found it while browsing around. I don't know the selling price, and I did not find the date that it sold. I'm not an expert, but in studying the photos, I see no reason to doubt its authenticity, or the fact that it was originally a flintlock. However, considering that rifles of this description will cost you as much as a new truck, I thought the photographs that were provided were rather poor. I don't recall seeing this rifle written up or documented, but I'll be the first to admit I haven't read everything, and I am certainly not an expert.

In watching the auction sites, I have seen at least a couple of the rifles described in Baird's book sell in the last few years. I also found what I believe to be the "Early Hawken Rifle" described in Chapter 3 of Hawken Rifles: The Mountain Man's Choice, in the collections of the Buffalo Bill Center of the West, with a few digital images online (Hawken Plains Rifle). These old rifles show up, then go into hiding, and then resurface years later. Like you, I would hope to see that fullstock properly examined and documented some day.

Notchy Bob

 

[pamtnman]

Well done, Notchy Bob

 

[HighUintas]

Thank you, Bob!

Does it look in those auction photos like the barrel is pinned rather than having keys? That's what it looks like to me but I can't tell for sure. Also, does that converted lock plate have a hole where a second lock bolt would have been? I don't think I see any patched forward lock bolt hole on the side plate side of the stock.

 

[Notchy Bob]

@HighUintas

You are very observant, and bring up some important questions.

I’m using an iPhone right now and don’t know how to post pictures with it, but interested readers can click that first link in post #116 and go right to the listing for the subject rifle.

I don’t see any evidence of a forward lock bolt in the lockplate or the stock. As noted previously, the photos are remarkably poor, considering this rifle’s value and importance, and my vision has deteriorated a bit, but I don’t see the relief cut in the wood above the lockplate that one would expect with a flintlock. The lockplate does show holes for the feather spring and pan, suggesting conversion from a flintlock. So, I can’t rule out the possibility that this might just be a converted flint lock on an original percussion rifle. I can’t explain the absence of the forward lock bolt, though. The “drum and nipple” arrangement would have probably been used to convert a flintlock rifle to percussion, but some original percussion rifles were made that way, too.

I honestly can’t see whether the barrel is attached with pins or wedges. I do know that Hawken fullstocks typically did not have escutcheon plates, and on some of the early J&S rifles the escutcheon plates were surface mounted and not inlet. I believe the half-stocked rifle in the BBHC (re the other link in post 116) has this feature.

There is no doubt that the full stocked subject rifle is an early one. It has the short, “Kentucky style” bar for the set triggers, the circular scroll finial on the guard (not the flatter ovoid scroll of later rifles), and that perplexing, “shallow crescent” cheek piece. The J&S rifle in the BBHC has a similar cheek-piece, and I’ve seen at least one other early J&S rifle made that way. I would consider that a Germanic trait, and Shumway illustrated several examples in his book about jeagers. You see it today on Jim Chambers’ “Little Feller’s Rifle.”

in summary, I wish we knew more about this rifle, or at least had better pictures. In my opinion, both of the rifles in the images linked in post #116 show some consistent, early features that illustrate the evolution of the Hawken style. I don’t know of any of today’s builders replicating that really early style.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[HighUintas]

@Notchy Bob , I was wondering if the trigger plate was shorter than most original Hawkens, but couldn't tell for sure. That is a good point as well as the more circular scroll at the back of the guard.

Making my screen brighter, I do believe that is a pin in the stock below the rear sight.

As for a notch in the stock if the stock were originally used with a flint, isn't that it just behind the hammer?

Isn't there some later flintlocks that use a single lock bolt? I was thinking that was common with some Tennessee/southern mountain rifles