Hall breech loading flint lock? (pics)

[jdkerstetter]

It's your gun and it's up to you.

But it doesn't matter where the patina came from, patina is patina. I would let an expert in historic arms decide.

You can't remove the rust and the subsequent staining without removing some metal with it. It will show.

And what ever you do don't remove or add any wood finish. Trust me.

Try the wax. You may be pleased with the results.

J.M.2.C. J.D.

 

[Jackman]

jdkerstetter , I hear ya and appreciate the wisdom :thumbsup: , I can live with the wood finsh it not too bad but the rust is nasty and if I am not mistaken rust just keeps on growing when left unchecked making this old rifle metal daeker with age.......

Taking one step at a time, appreciate the help :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[jdkerstetter]

Waxing over the rust will arrest it until you can have it looked at.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[lonehorseman]

What everyone is trying to say is, "Leave it alone!!!!!". Do not ruin such a great gun by polishing and sanding it into the 21st century. Back in the day, many guns were left unfinished, and the metal was allowed to turn a beautiful rusty brown. I have an original Harper's Ferry. It has lost of rust, but it look great to me. I cannot tell last week's rust from rust that occurred on a damp night at Antietam; nor can anyone else. Rub a little oil on it and LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

 

[steved]

Jackman,

I agree with lonehorseman when he said "Leave it alone!!!". The finish on the metal that you think is rust and described as "nothing historical" is actually the original finish. The Hall rifles were finished with a "durable brown lacquer", as noted in the online Guns and Ammo article:
http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/hall-carbine

I have a Harpers Ferry Hall dated 1826 and the finish on mine looks exactly like that on your North Hall. Every picture I've ever seen of a Hall rifle has the brown lacquer finish. The lone exeception being the pictures of Mr. Conner's rifle in his post. In the following pictures of my rifle you can see the finish similar to that on yours.

I differ from others who replied in that I have every intention of firing mine. I just purchased and received a .525 round ball mould from Jeff Tanner in the UK. As soon as I find the time to cast some ball, I will head to the range to give it a try. The Guns and Ammo article gives a testimonial on loading and shooting an original Hall, and I've received advice from other owners who've fired theirs.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Please, as you have heard over and over, do not attempt to "clean" this gun, it doesn't need it.... at all. You will damage it's value, both historical and financial. Glad to hear that you managed to save the top jaw and the rest of the cock screw. The original screw can be repaired by someone who knows what he is doing. But NOT your "tactical gunsmith". (What is a "tactical gunsmith" anyway? So far as I know there is no such thing.) I'm not trying to insult him, I am sure he knows his way around modern assault rifles but look for someone who specializes in antiques for advice on this one.

The original wood finish on all US military firearms before the M14 rifle was pure, raw linseed oil applied by dunking in a tank of said oil at a high temperature. Excess oil was allowed to drain off and then the gun was assembled. Finish in service was the same raw linseed oil, applied in small amounts by hand over the working life of the gun, no shellac was ever applied. Old linseed oil looks like a varnish, especially after a long period of time and that may be what you are seeing as shellac.

The metal on your gun can be treated as suggested by JD or by a light application of a good light weight gun oil, either wax or oil will stop the rust, your Hall looks great as it is. Carefully apply wax or oil to the metal and enjoy it. Firing it would be, I hate to say it in light of what our friend Jersey Flinter said, wrong in very many ways. The heat and flash of the powder will remove any original finish it comes in contact with, especially with repeated firing.

 

[jdkerstetter]

The heat and flash of the powder will remove any original finish it comes in contact with, especially with repeated firing.

Not to mention the what the subsequent cleaning could do to the finish....or if not executed properly leave down inside the guns action to haunt you later.

Good advice '06.

J.D.

 

[rr11]

Just somthing for you to think about. On tracks web sight they have a Hall converted to percusion ( as many were) for 3999.00. Does not look to be as nice a rifle as yours. Would give me pause before I tryed to shoot it.

 

[Jackman]

Please, as you have heard over and over, do not attempt to "clean" this gun, it doesn't need it.... at all. You will damage it's value, both historical and financial. Glad to hear that you managed to save the top jaw and the rest of the cock screw. The original screw can be repaired by someone who knows what he is doing. But NOT your "tactical gunsmith". (What is a "tactical gunsmith" anyway? So far as I know there is no such thing.) I'm not trying to insult him, I am sure he knows his way around modern assault rifles but look for someone who specializes in antiques for advice on this one.

The original wood finish on all US military firearms before the M14 rifle was pure, raw linseed oil applied by dunking in a tank of said oil at a high temperature. Excess oil was allowed to drain off and then the gun was assembled. Finish in service was the same raw linseed oil, applied in small amounts by hand over the working life of the gun, no shellac was ever applied. Old linseed oil looks like a varnish, especially after a long period of time and that may be what you are seeing as shellac.

The metal on your gun can be treated as suggested by JD or by a light application of a good light weight gun oil, either wax or oil will stop the rust, your Hall looks great as it is. Carefully apply wax or oil to the metal and enjoy it. Firing it would be, I hate to say it in light of what our friend Jersey Flinter said, wrong in very many ways. The heat and flash of the powder will remove any original finish it comes in contact with, especially with repeated firing.

Tactical Gun shop lots of Glocks and modern military ar-15 and lasers and personal self defense stuff etc etc, very little in the antique firearms, but still this guy is good I have know doubt about it.


I agree with most of what ya'll say but if you saw this in person you might think different,,,,, the barrel rust is small kids finger prints you can actually see the loops in the prints there are at least 4 prints and one big smudge its not pretty or historical, would really like to make it look aged yet taken care of.....

 

[jdkerstetter]

Do you ever watch Antiques Roadshow?

They always recommend "professional restoration" and tell the owner it will increase the value this much or that much, etc.

How about the antiques that they appraise that some amatuer worked on thinking they were enhancing the value? Ever hear 'em say "it's good thing you monkeyed with this it, made it worth so much more"? No? Right, it's always "Now would you like me to tell you how much more it would be worth if somebody hadn't done that".

It's not going to hurt it to let it go until you can find somebody who can do it right and it's a small investment.....really.

But, as I said, it's your gun. Enjoy, J.D.

 

I believe the rifle fired a round ball. There are a couple of other Hall rifle owners on this site, Buck Connor being one of them. I wouldn't shoot this piece of history. I'd consider it retired. Other than the top cock jaw, it looks to be in great condition on the outside!!

Value can be in the $ thousands. Don't let her go!

In good condition Hall flinters run in the $2,500 to $3,500 range. Ones in very good to NRA fine will go from $3,500 and up depending on age, metal, bore and stock conditions. If tampered with the prices really drop. Your better off to leave as is on this one rather than hurt the value.

I have had several Hall's flinters, conversions and precussions. At this time I have a couple of flinters, a conversion and a precussion Hall. The pictures of the flinter I post a while back is a solid 93%-95% NRA Fine condition flinter, with original bayonet and metal 'holder' (which are really hard to find). I have some original wrapped .52 cal. paper cartridges (round ball) and I am still looking for an original rd ball mold. Usually about the time I have everything put together for a weapon I find something I like better and the project is gone, this Hall is getting close to being on thin ice.

I have been in the business of buying, selling and trading antique firearms since 1960 and around antigue weapons all my life. In over 50 years I have run across allot of guns that have been cleaned and watched them sell at reduced prices because of that. Serious collectors will look at poorly done work as parts guns, bottom of the pile money wise.

 

Do you ever watch Antiques Roadshow?

They always recommend "professional restoration" and tell the owner it will increase the value this much or that much, etc.

How about the antiques that they appraise that some amatuer worked on thinking they were enhancing the value? Ever hear 'em say "it's good thing you monkeyed with this it, made it worth so much more"? No? Right, it's always "Now would you like me to tell you how much more it would be worth if somebody hadn't done that".

It's not going to hurt it to let it go until you can find somebody who can do it right and it's a small investment.....really.

But, as I said, it's your gun. Enjoy, J.D.

Always use "professional restoration", its pricey but done correctly you won't loose. Doug Turnbull - http://www.turnbullmfg.com/, Jack Brooks - http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/
, are just two that I have used.

"Antique Roadshow" is the biggest "bubble buster" on TV today. Its very seldom they even come close to the actual retail value. When still working in the Gun Library for Cabelas we would see an apprasial on this show and just shake our heads. Colts were so wrong it would make us sick knowing that someone has an old Colt and now thinking an average used 1860 Army is worth $7,000-$8,000 when its a $1,200 tops weapon. I would watch the program then go to work and find the same or close to weapon in our or another Gun Library for much less than shown on the show. In the back room we had a sign that read "SORRY THIS IS NOT YOUR ANTIQUE ROADSHOW MOMENT". In all the years of working sales on firearms I have only seen a dozen or so of those moments and they were far and few between. That's another story, maybe a good topic too.

Friends would ask how I like working at the Gun Library and I would reply "its just an expensive retailer". Cabelas gun prices in the libraries are high. They appraise the gun at what they think they will be able to retail it for, then take off 30% giving you 70% of the retail value.

 

[satwel]

From what I can tell from your pictures, your Hall is in exceptionally good condition. The four examples of Halls that I've seen close up in the Springfield Armory collection are not in nearly as good condition as yours. Please, please, please do not touch anything on it. Take it to a professional firearms conservator for preservation. There are special waxes they can use to preserve and protect it from further deterioration. You have a real treasure!