handgonne vs breastplate

[Spiridonov12]

Spiridonov, Your English is much better than my
Russian! I was wondering What are the gun laws where you live? I know some places in Europe you can't even own a Gonne like in your video. Can you go out and shoot flintlocks and such?

:v

Yes I can but the law forbids it. We have strict laws but I do not observe them

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

As of now we can shoot and own guns and black powder. With the big anti gun government we voted in two weeks ago we may be in the same boat as you are before long! Keep your powder dry and your flint sharp ( or your slowmatch dry! )
:thumbsup:

 

[trent/OH]

What do we know (not suppose) about early European Black Powder, as far as it's composition and power, relative to today's Black Powders?

 

[bingo1952]

The earliest was serpentine powder which was a dry mix of the individual ingredients. It was hard to transport because it had a tendency to separate in transport into its individual components and had to be remixed when it reached its destination. Power levels on a grain per grain charge was probably 50% at best compared to todays powders plus when lit off you get a hiss,sizzle,bang effect. Corned powders were better probably approaching 90% of todays powders if the mix ratio was correct. When the corned powder was first introduced the metallurgy of the time could not produce a cannon that could stand up to the increased pressure that it generated. The corned powder was less dense than the powder of today and a 100 grain charge could take up as much room in the chamber as a 200 grain charge would with todays powder.
Google blackpowder and there is a lot of much more detailed info on the web.
If I have given any incorrect info it is unintentional.

 

[Bartek]

Breastplates were usufull in central-eastern Europe in XVII century yet. In 1604 King of Sweden, Charles IX, invaded Poland to conquer eastern Baltic area (today Latvia).
King of Poland sended next year only 4000 "winged hussars" against swedish army (11 000 soldiers).
Both armies met at village Kircholm 28. september 1605. The battle was the massacre of swedish troops. About 6000 Swedes were killed in the battle. On the Polish side - about 20... The secret was simple: heavy armour of Poles (max. 8 mm !) vs. low quality of swedish muskets.
In the castle in Liw (central Poland) there is one of the largest collection of armament, in that number numerous breastplates of that period. Allmost all of them have marks made by musket balls, but only two of them are perforated!

Battle at Kircholm was great shock for swedish army and the next king of Sweden, Gustavus Adolphus, reformeted his army completely.
One of his steps was to buy for his infatry much more better muskets in Holland. Swedes invaded Poland next time in 1626 and we lost the first confrontation - the battle at Gniew. Our winged hussars were decimated by the fire of new, heavy muskets of swedish infantry.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Thanks for the history! On the history channel a few years back I watched a similar story. The muskets were starting to defeat armor. Then the Italians came out with a new lighter but case hardened armor that could repel these early muskets. The new armor carried the day for a short time until improvements in musketry came about. I watched this years ago and I can't remember the dates. I know it was late in the period of armor. It sounds similar to your history. In the 18th century over here when we fought the French and later the British the last
piece of armor had dwindled down to the Gorjet
a sign of rank. They made handy targets for riflemen! Of course during Napoleon's wars his cavalry still used heavy bronze breast plates so I guess one could say that armor was still used early in the 19th century

 

[Spiridonov12]

What do we know (not suppose) about early European Black Powder, as far as it's composition and power, relative to today's Black Powders?

I made gunpowder under the medieval recipe

 

[tg]

"
Yes I can but the law forbids it. We have strict laws but I do not observe them"

Damn..I like that guy!

 

[robinghewitt]

What do we know (not suppose) about early European Black Powder, as far as it's composition and power, relative to today's Black Powders?

1646...

There was in ancient time a kind of Powder called Serpentine Powder; why it was so called I need not here declare; this powder being the first, was made in a small kind of dust like meal, and was but of a weak receipt in comparison of that we now use, and neither was it corned as our powder that we use in these days, for which cause, though it were then but weak, and now the strength in a manner doubled; one pound of powder which is now in use is as strong as two pounds of the old serpentine powder.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Lets see, does not observe the law and makes his own powder. This man may have to come over here and give us all lessons before long the way things are going!
:bow:

 

[Leonredbeard]

My prayer is that he doesn't get arrested because he has made it known on the internet! :shocked2: The safety here is that there are so many people on the internet even an army couldn't moniter it all even in Mother Russia. :wink: Still all it takes is a chance observation. Maybe someday sane people will rule the world, hyuk hyuk. :youcrazy:
volatpluvia

 

[Dan Goad]

I've been thinking about that too. We'll both be sending up our prayers for the young man's safety.

Jac S. Muell

 

[benvenuto]

Bartek,
The famous elizabethan poet Sir Phillip Sidney was killed in battle around the same period. He had the latest musket proof breastplate, but his helmet and cuisses were only pistol proof and he had the misfortune to be shot by a musket in the thigh leading to septecemia and death.
Most of the misconceptions people have about armour being incredibly cumbersome come from the late period when armourers were trying to defeat bullets with greater thickness of metal

 

[TFoley]

Did they not make bodkin tip arrows that were designed to go through armor? I seen a demonstration on the history channel where the bodkin tip went through the breastplate. Did not the use of firelocks bring about the end of armor?
How thick and hard would a piece of armor need to be to stop a .75 caliber, 650 grain ball moving at 1200 FPS? It seems to me that if armor could stop muzzle loading balls it would have been used up to the 19th century.
Were the French Knights wearing plate armor at Agincourt in 1415?

Just a few random thoughts going through my head
tonight!!

:bow: :bow:

Sir - I have shot a 100 pound draw-weight longbow against plate armour using bodkin-pointed arrows. The actual shape is almost identical, even to the angle, of a modern cold chisel, as used in metalwork.

There is also a little secret, that I'll tell you if you promise NOT to tell the French -
Just before shooting the arrow, we place a rolled-up ball of bees-wax on the point of the arrow - this momentarily holds the point of the arrow in place long enough for it to punch its way through the armour, more often than not.

If you read a bit more about the Battle of Azincourt, you will learn that most of the French who died were killed by having a dagger pushed through their eyeballs as the lay on the ground injured, or were hammered to death with the lethal war-hammer - a pole-arm with a heavy wedge-shaped hammer head on one side, and a fearsome spike on the other.

Either side hitting you was going to smart a good bit.

tac

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

TAC,
I must ask, I presume it was the arrows that put the French knights on the ground so the footsoldiers could use the deadly close up weapons. It would be kind of hard to put your little thin bladed knife through a knight's visor
if he was still mounted and well heeled!

:bow:

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

OH, I will not tell the French!

 

[David Teague]

TAC,
I must ask, I presume it was the arrows that put the French knights on the ground so the footsoldiers could use the deadly close up weapons. It would be kind of hard to put your little thin bladed knife through a knight's visor
if he was still mounted and well heeled!

:bow:

It was the arrows that put the horses on the ground...

throwing the knights to their doom.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Didn't some of them drown in the mud, pressed down by the weight of their comrades and horses on top of them? Or was that at Crecy? Either way, I think I'd rather be stabbed in the eye and die quickly...

 

[kentucky bucky]

I just saw a show about English Civil War armor. They scientist X rayed an original piece and found it was made in 3 layers. There was a special layer in between the inner and outer skin just like our modern body armor. an armorer made a replica asa close as he could to the original and it did repel musket balls although it damaged the breastplate.

 

[TFoley]

Yes, many drowned in the mud. Over eight thousand Frenchman died at Azincourt - the very flower of French nobility.

English and Welsh losses amounted to around 200, including the king's second eldest son, Duke of York, who also fell of his horse and drowned.

tac