I have a traditions 50 cal. deerhunter sidelock that likes to hang-fire when I load it with conical bullets, It seldom does with rb's or those plastic things with pistol bullets. I understand this is not a top quality gun but why would different bullets make any difference. I usually use cci magnum caps but have tried other brands,tried pyrodex RS,P and 2F goex with similar results,have also tried different nipples, always tap the butt and smack the side during loading. Don't have issues with my other guns. I suspect it may have something to do with the rb holding more pressure upon the charge while the conical is "loose". Any thoughts ??
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hang-fire cause ??
- Thread starter yellowlab
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AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
yellowlab said:
I once told the doctor that "it hurts when I do this".
The doctor replied " then don't do that".
Welcome to the Forum. 
If I were to guess, when you load a patched ball or the other things we don't talk about here, the air in the barrel under the projectile is being blown out of the nipple hole when you ram them down the bore.
As it is blown out, it will blow the loose powder back thru the small hole (flame channel) that connects the bore with the bottom of the nipple.
The lead slugs are usually a looser fit in the bore so much of the air under them blows past them and out of the muzzle rather than blowing thru the nipple.
That basically ends up in not blowing the loose powder back to the nipple.
You might trying ramming the lead slugs faster down the bore to lessen the leaking issue.
By the way, always make sure no spent cap is on the nipple and the hammer is resting at half cock so it doesn't plug the nipple and it allows the air to blow out as you are loading.
If I were to guess, when you load a patched ball or the other things we don't talk about here, the air in the barrel under the projectile is being blown out of the nipple hole when you ram them down the bore.
As it is blown out, it will blow the loose powder back thru the small hole (flame channel) that connects the bore with the bottom of the nipple.
The lead slugs are usually a looser fit in the bore so much of the air under them blows past them and out of the muzzle rather than blowing thru the nipple.
That basically ends up in not blowing the loose powder back to the nipple.
You might trying ramming the lead slugs faster down the bore to lessen the leaking issue.
By the way, always make sure no spent cap is on the nipple and the hammer is resting at half cock so it doesn't plug the nipple and it allows the air to blow out as you are loading.
The substitute powders are notorious for being difficult to ignite. That's one source for the problems. However you are also having trouble with 2f GOEX powder. That leads me to thinking that there is some form of minor obstruction that is blocking the flash from the nipple to the main charge. I believe that the Traditions, like CVA have a patent breech that is smaller than the bore. These will often get fouling build up if all that fouling is not removed.
So the first order of business is to remove the barrel from your rifle and really do a thorough flushing clean out with soapy water to remove fouling. Run a pipe cleaner from the drum into the powder chamber to be sure that channel is clear and open from the nipple to the powder. Dry everything well with an alcohol dampened patch.
When loading don't over lubricate as the excess lubricant can affect the ability to ignite the powder.
Lastly use 3fg real black powder in your rifle as the finer grade is easier to ignite. Remember to use about 10% less 3f than your 2f load.
So the first order of business is to remove the barrel from your rifle and really do a thorough flushing clean out with soapy water to remove fouling. Run a pipe cleaner from the drum into the powder chamber to be sure that channel is clear and open from the nipple to the powder. Dry everything well with an alcohol dampened patch.
When loading don't over lubricate as the excess lubricant can affect the ability to ignite the powder.
Lastly use 3fg real black powder in your rifle as the finer grade is easier to ignite. Remember to use about 10% less 3f than your 2f load.
ccmountainman
40 Cal.
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A properly fitted and loaded conical.
First which conicals are you using?
Conicals really should be prelubed with a thick lube in the grooves And should be a very snug fit all the way down
Been using 50/50 beeswax- tallow (lard) for years the ratio adjusted to my liking.
Do NOT use a patch with a conical. Although some have found a felt wad over the powder helps with accuracy.
So my suggestion. Lube the bullets, use 2 or 3 f real BP make sure bullet is all the way on the powder. use an 11 mag cap.
35+ years with my same CVA 50 cal mountain rifle using the Lee Real bullet, never had a hang fire or failure to fire, except once I forgot to add the powder and a few dud caps here and there.
First which conicals are you using?
Conicals really should be prelubed with a thick lube in the grooves And should be a very snug fit all the way down
Been using 50/50 beeswax- tallow (lard) for years the ratio adjusted to my liking.
Do NOT use a patch with a conical. Although some have found a felt wad over the powder helps with accuracy.
So my suggestion. Lube the bullets, use 2 or 3 f real BP make sure bullet is all the way on the powder. use an 11 mag cap.
35+ years with my same CVA 50 cal mountain rifle using the Lee Real bullet, never had a hang fire or failure to fire, except once I forgot to add the powder and a few dud caps here and there.
Billnpatti
Cannon
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The basic problem is that you are not getting a good flame to good dry powder. If you were, you would have immediate ignition every time. So, you need to find out why you are not getting a hot flame to good dry powder. Is your flame channel clear? Have you somehow contaminated the powder in the breach area of your rifle? Oil? Moisture? Fouling build up in the breach? Caps that are not hot enough to ignite the powder? Improper cleaning that has allowed crud to build up in the breach or flame channel? It has to be one of these things. Take a systematic approach and check each of these things out. You will discover just what is causing the hang-fires and you can eliminate it. I have been shooting a T/C Hawken for many years and it makes no difference what kind of projectile I use, it goes bang immediately so, I think it has nothing to do with the design of the rifle but more to do with your cleaning or loading procedure. That's my best guess.
Pour the powder in,, Then knock the side of the rifle a few times down by the breech,, that'll help wiggle some powder down into the drum.
Thank you all for your input. I did a bit more examining on this gun and noticed "pointing a light through the bolister clean out" that the last 1/2 inch or so of the inside of the barrel "the breach area" is only about 1/4 inch in diameter. This would likely cause problems with my breach scraping efforts. This could also resist larger powder granulations from getting to the ignition area.But it seems this would cause the same problems with rbs as conicals. Ive been wanting to try 3f bp in my .54 flinter so Ill get some of that next time I get powder "70 mile drive". I will also give it an extra smack on the side and try ramming those conicals down faster.Iuse a beeswax/lanolin/olive oil lube on conicals "has to be melted to apply"so it seals and holds then in place well but maybe a wad would help.thanks again.
You said the conical was looser. Maybe not packing the powder as tight and casing a delay. A conical should still fir snug. Using minie or maxi? Maybe a over powder wad would help and they sometimes improve accuracy too.
I have used home made ,real320s/lyman 370 maxis/tc maxi-hunters,factory ballets but no minnies. Im also carefull with cleaning using hot water/brushes/pipe cleaners/dish soap then drying with old hair dryer and funnel to push hot air through the barrel.Dont know why It even matters that it dosnt like conicals just a puzzle I guess.The gun has been retired from hunting for years now, Ive been telling my wife that a muzzleloader can only kill one elk then it has to be replaced, so far she has allowed me to continue.
Dave Rosenthal
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Not-for nuthin' as they say in Jersey, but I'd be willing to bet that your intermittent ignition is caused by poor cleaning habits and/or results. Not by some magic power of the PRB vs. Conical bullet theory.
It sounds as if you've experimented with LOTS of guns & powders, so I'll add this: Switch to REAL Goex FFFg black powder & give the rifle a smack (like several others had said). If it EVER fails to fire the first thing I ask Newbies is how they store the gun: Muzzle-up is nuthin' but problems with oil dripping down into the flash channel. Muzzle-down is the proper way to store, especially after a fresh cleaning & oiling.
It's all been said before. Somehow the cap's spark is being impeded. YOUR JOB is to ascertain WHY & correct this condition. Once the condition is corrected, then superior ignition will be the result.
So get yourself a CLEAN & DRY flash channel & your rifle will be happy!
Dave
NRA Distinguished Expert in Muzzleloading Rifle & Pistol
It sounds as if you've experimented with LOTS of guns & powders, so I'll add this: Switch to REAL Goex FFFg black powder & give the rifle a smack (like several others had said). If it EVER fails to fire the first thing I ask Newbies is how they store the gun: Muzzle-up is nuthin' but problems with oil dripping down into the flash channel. Muzzle-down is the proper way to store, especially after a fresh cleaning & oiling.
It's all been said before. Somehow the cap's spark is being impeded. YOUR JOB is to ascertain WHY & correct this condition. Once the condition is corrected, then superior ignition will be the result.
So get yourself a CLEAN & DRY flash channel & your rifle will be happy!
Dave
NRA Distinguished Expert in Muzzleloading Rifle & Pistol
