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Fred, I can mount my Hawken out on my upper arm between the deltoid and bicep and have the sights line up every time. I can do this with my eyes shut and have the sights perfectly aligned each time. Recoil isn't a problem. As was mentioned, this is the only rifle that I shoot this way. The rifle is a late Sam Hawken, Great Migration era gun weighing just under ten pounds and wish I knew the maker as I would like to shake his hand. Dan
 
The thin crescent butt and shooting off yourarm is required if you attempt to shoot off a horse with one hand while trying to outrun an enemy.
It isn't the shape of the butt that gets people, and it isn't really people shooting it wrong either. The way a crescent buttplate stock is made, it has to fit the shooter for it to be a comfortable gun to carry and shoot. When mine comes up, you could almost lay a level across the channel. That took me about a week and a half of studying and making small adjustments getting it to fit me.
The Leman's are better handling guns and today the two are made out of parts from the same suppliers. The only quality difference is up to the builder. Unless the person needs a heavy rifle to shoot heavy loads, I would not recommend a Hawken style to anyone. 11 pounds can be made to be comfortable, but I like 8 a lot better!
 
Most people shoot loads that are way too heavy, and so the buttplate does hurt them. 60-65 grains of 3F is plenty in a .54 caliber rifle. It will punch completely through a whitetail. That's dead enough.
 
Well, I can not speak for anyone else, but....
The inletting on the hooked breech with the long tang and getting the barrel to snap fit to the breech while trying to inlet the tapered barrel to a "one touch fit" with the inletting black was tough, even though I started with them both glued together. The hammer to nipple fit was a pain. Took several heatings and bends to make the hammer sit square to the nipple. The under rib to ramrod hole alignment with the forecap inlet and ram rod cut in the forecap was also a real pain. Way too many angles, wood cuts and metal fitting (all in iron) for my taste. The long tigger assembly is very hard to inlet without getting a gap at one end or the other (and still getting the trigger to hit the sear correctly. Getting the iron trigger guard to sit square and flat to the trigger plate is not easy (it screws into the plate - you cut and tap the hole) was not easy (I took someones advise from this forum and filed the trigger guard base thin and hammered the rim of the iron trigger guard down to fit flush with the steel trigger plate after the trigger guard was screwed into place as locked down with the back screw). Lets see, used the plans sold on several sites to make sure the stock was rounded correctly at the right points (you don't want a 'slab sided' look at the wedge pins > the stock at the butt actally tapers back to the butt plate from the center of the stock, kinda weird arrangement that works well when you fire the gun). The lock plate has to be file fitted to the patent breech and then blended to the stock - that was a lot of filing and a bit scary at first. The inlet for the lock has to be tight, only one screw and blending the stock to the breech and barrel smoothly can be tricky. Other than that, a Hawken is relativly easy. Really, it just takes research and practice on scrap metal and wood, but there are a bunch of places to get screwed up. The good news is that the all iron funiture makes you go slow.

Mike F.
 
Wow, very good detailed expaination Mike. I've built a few of those, but never saw the steps put into words before.
That trigger assembly can drive you nuts the first time. I think it falls in the catagory of optical illusion. The trick is to always think in terms of inletting 90 degrees to the barrel and forearm direction, not the wrist direction. Easier said than done. Bill
 
Havent seen you on before, you sound like another Cooner 54 ( A Hawken building NDN thats nothing but GREAT) I tryed to get a Hawken barrel made from Baird's book, and was turnned down by everyone as to hard to flat cant be done...from his book> (this is inside) 1X48 twist, a slight taper to 9 1/2" from muzz,then a choke for 8" to a slight flare at muzzle .0005 to .002 right at the face.Any way that was just trying to get one right. I wanted to try the Smithson's Hawken for a first try till Don Stith said 'ya cant even find the right stock for one you'll have to start with that.....I just shot a Ithaca Hawken,and Sante Fe/TOW 1985 make. I'll let the guys that have done this for years or have the time and talent to do them. Good luck with what ever you do. Fred :hatsoff: SOME HAWKEN PICs thanks to the Big man.
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Yes Mark, they do. It is pretty easy to see where someone coming from the modern gun world would think that way and behave that way. They spend years hearing that faster is better, that bigger is better, and that you need to knock a fist size hole thru a whitetail. Even the pellet guns they had as kids list velocity first because of the way the public thinks.
I shot 100 grains of P under a roundball for many years. I studied all the writings when I started. I actually worked up a load 5 grains at a time using multiple groups at each level. About 70 was the most accurate, but acceptable accuracy started to go away at 110. The thought of using less powder than the gun would handle never even entered my head at that time. When the ball stopped in a huge bucks neck, and I got to examine the wound channel a roundball makes in solid muscle, I stopped shooting them at anything but small game or targets for years. I went to the 385 HBHP bullets over 100 grains of P instead. It took a lot of years for me to mature as a hunter and starting to shoot at public events for me to go back to roundball at all.
I now shoot a 70 grain 2f load under a roundball for just about everything from target to 300 pound whitetails. It was a journey getting there tho.
Some of the folks here are starting out on that same trip. They still want 3000 fps and a huge hole thru the animal. Some are farther along the road and are into flinters now. Roundball is a good example. He still has not started to moderate his loads yet, even tho sometimes you see that direction coming soon from his posts. His focus is on shooting that big buck out to 100 yards still. From a pure hunting basis, the idea that the light loads are better runs contrary to everything they have ever heard until they joined the muzzleloading world. Others joined a club first or soon after they started. Most of their focus is on hitting targets consistantly. That group very quickly goes to the most accurate loads in their guns and most use them for everything like I do.
To just say they use too much powder is a very simplistic way of dealing with an issue that is quite complicated. The Hawken legend is based on a heavy rifle designed to shoot heavy loads. Now they were designed for use taking off into the mountains and the plains where shooting distances are longer. They were designed for an environ where bison, grizzlies, and hostiles could be encountered. Given that environ, I guess I would be carrying a gun with a 120 grain 54 load a lot of the time.
As it is, I hunt targets and deer with my fifties. I have not fired a roundball load over 70 grains in years. I have killed two deer in the 300 pound range with roundball. Inside the ranges I will shoot at, 70 grains is plenty.
That is the key. The range you expect to need to shoot at. I still take the slug gun if I expect to shoot past 70 yards. I am considering a smoothbore for my deer hunting and shortening my effective distance again. That place takes time to get to.
 
As long as you have raised the " Hawken Legend", I know of two famous " mountain men " and guides who used Hawken Rifles-- Kit Carson, and Jim Bridger. Bridger's gun, horn, possibles bag, and powder measures are in a museum out west. I now forget exactly which museum holds them. But, several years ago, now, someone wrote an article in Muzzle Blasts about studying Possibles Bags. He traveled the country looking at Pre-revolutinary bags, Rev. bags, and on all the way up through the Depression in the 1930s.

When he got to look at the bag of Jim Bridger, he happened to also take a look at his antler horn powder measure. It seemed quite shallow in depth, so he asked the Curator how much powder it threw. The Curator did not know. He had powder and a powder scale in his truck, so he got them, and with the Curator watching carefull he poured a measure full of powder, and then put it on the scales. " 50 grains ". bridger's gun is a .53, or .54 Hawken, depending on whether someone made a typo in writing a story.

Later, the researcher studied some of the old writings about Bridger. The man had a reputation for telling tall tales, so most historian dismissed his biographies as providing truth in any regard. However, in one interview, Bridger was asked about his gun and the loads he used. He said, without reference to the weight of the powder in grains, that he used " one measure " of powder for deer, and antelope, " Two measures full " of powder for elk, and moose, and puma, and " Three measures full " for Grizzley bear.

What also became evident in further statements that Bridger was more concerned about saving his lead, than powder. He used light loads so that the ball would not leave the animal's torso on the opposite side, and be lost. He wanted to find the lead bullet on the inside of the hide on the opposite side of the animal, so that he could recover the lead and melt it into a new ball.

When you understand that the early explorers, like Carson and Bridger left from St. Louis and traveled by water, and then by horseback to the mountains, more than 1,000 miles from the nearest supply of caps and lead,or powder, so that everything they need for a year or more had to be carried in by them, you begin to understand his thinking. He was an excellent tracker, which most ML shooters today ARE NOT. He was not worried about a bad shot that might require him to track his game down to recover it. He also was a very good shot, out of necessity, so those opportunities were very rare. But, he could do it, and recover both his deer, and the lead slug.

Percussion caps don't weigh much, nor take up much space. The only problem was keeping them dry. They did that by sealing the tins with wax, and then wrapping them in oilcloth, in several layers.

If people are really interested in being " period Correct " I might suggest the heretical notion that they learn to track well, and then use less powder in their guns when they hunt. :nono: :hmm: :shocked2: :thumbsup:
 
It sounds like a plausible story. But when you are not certain that you are going to meet up with,a griz or bambi, I would load for the grizz.I have also heard of (or read) of having a hole drilled into the buttstock to keep caps in for a emergency supply.The hole was under the butt plate and sealed with wax.
 
Considering the Grizzley bear is protected, and can result in Federal Jail time, that would cost you your right to own or shoot a gun for the rest of your life, you might want to reconsider that statement. If you can track, and read sign, you will know when you have stumbled into a bear's territory. You will know how recently the bear has been where you are standing, whether its a boar, or a sow, with cubs, so that you can make noise, and avoid any kind of controntation. I can assure you that if you are hunting deer in bear country, you are wasting your time! The deer will get one whiff of that bear, and be gone!
 
I was refering to the 1800's as you were.Plus a grizz travels and you could cross it's path, maybe even a indian or two.

PS: If it was between me and a protected animal I know the choice i'll make.
 
If you are attacked while carrying a ML rifle, it will be at close range. You want to accurately drive the one shot you have into the brain through its mouth.That calls for steeled nerves, careful aim, and cool determination. At close range the extra powder is not going to make a difference. If you even get your rifle to your shoulder in time to shoot at the bear, you will be lucky. Those heavy loads are for shooting a bear at one end and trying to gut it to the other. A 230 grain ball at about 10 yards is going to smash through all the cartelage, and bone to get to the brain that you will need, if you shoot it in its mout, even with just 50 grains of powder.
 
I've hunted deer in grizzly country for the last 32 years. Lots of precautions, but basically the deer pretty much ignore the grizzly unless they start acting like they are hunting.

For me, the question griz with ml is more than theoretical. I face that prospect every time I step out the door, whether chasing deer, elk, moose, ptarmigan, snowshoe hare or ducks.

As Paul says, it boils down to placing one shot where it counts, then taking your lumps if it doesn't work out.

It also boils down to deciding not to shoot. I heard growling while deer hunting this last fall, recognized it as cubs playing at about the same time they popped out of the brush about 50 yards ahead of me. Mom was right behind, and didn't hesitate to drop her head and charge the moment she saw me. Three big stiff legged hops with a woof at the end of each put her at about 25 yards, but also told me she was simply being a good mom and trying to chase off a potential threat. I started backing off slow while talking to her, and she turned and went back to run off her cubs.

End of story, except that I got a nice 3-pointer (western count) in the same vicinity not much later.

I spend a lot of time in grizzly hills, probably as much many guides. But none of us spend as much time there as the trappers of yore. I have to guess they had a lot more bear sense than any of us, and that more than their powder charge got them out of most scrapes.

Know you game, whether you are hunting it or just sharing the neighborhood with it.
 
yeah...you are right...i would definately rather get ate by a grizzly than take a chance of loosing my gun and hunting rites by shooting one.. :yakyak: :yakyak: :yakyak: boy am i stupid.. :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:
 
Never shoot a bear in the head with anything that will not tear it's head off pretty much. Even a Hawken 58 with 150 grains of powder under two round balls is not a head shot gun. Their brain is the size of a walnut wrapped in heavy bone. Even worse, a lot of the bears bodily function controls are along the spinal cord, not even located in the brain. You can actually hit the brain and the very dead bear might not know it until after he beats you to death. You break a bears shoulders or you cut it's spinal cord below the brain stem. Charging, you shoot below the chin or in the mouth if it is open in an attempt to hit spine, not brain. If you miss the spine, there is a good chance you damaged one of his weapons bad enough to drive him off.
Second, a trapper like Bridger did not shoot much at all once he reached his core area. He had plenty of meat, plenty of work to do, and did not need to use his gun. During those times the gun was loaded for unpleasant unexpected guests, or mine would be.
I am from what used to be woods outside St. Louis. I have been reading about Hawkens all my life or listening to stories. I read a copy of the written journal entry of the trapper that broke the wrist on his rifle in a fall that lead to the wrist with long tang and long trigger plate to beef it up. That was many years ago. They were a gun built for a purpose. Men that might need to shoot a 150 grain load under two or three balls and then beat an enemy to death with the butt were the target market.
 
It worries me when we agree Mark!

I recently found a good looking pattern for a coat like you bought a couple of years back. I will have it done by the fall, but my clothes really will no longer match my gun at all. I need a CVA Penn rifle in flint! I still have not found proper shoes tho. I picked forest green wool for the coat instead of brown.
 
I agree 100% that shot placement is key, Avoidance preferred.I still want my rifle loaded with a stout load,regardless. if 50 grns is adequate then 150grns would be MY preferred choice. Some folks are a little sensitive to recoil so let them shoot mouse farts. It just isn't my preference.
 
I personally feel that the 150 grain load will be less effective than a 70 grain load in a .54 caliber rifle.
 
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