Hawken gun kit
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I didn't say the heavier load wouldn't be faster. I just said it won't be as effective.
The old timers didn't shoot the magnum charges that most modern shooters do. They killed sometimes 400 deer a month with modest charges. A pure lead ball at high velocity just doesn't work very well. But you can't tell folks this, they want to make a Weatherby out of their muzzleloader. :hmm:
The old timers didn't shoot the magnum charges that most modern shooters do. They killed sometimes 400 deer a month with modest charges. A pure lead ball at high velocity just doesn't work very well. But you can't tell folks this, they want to make a Weatherby out of their muzzleloader. :hmm:
rabbit03
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Sully you and I must think alike for certain!
I am with ou on this too. I can see me getting eaten by a bear and thinking, "Damn I knew I should have put in the 150 grn load instead of the 50 grn one!
Yeah the 50 grn load may kill him but the question is WHEN! I want to know that if I were to need it I have it at my disposal and worry about the tree I killed behind the bear later on. It's not like I have a repeating rifle or anything, all I have is one shot at best if something goes wrong in bear country. I would rather be alive than to have been PC and eaten by a bear:shocked2:
rabbit03 ( I want to know I broke his neck from the impact if I don't hit his brain or spine) :thumbsup:
PSS Oh and what do you think I am going to be doing when the 150 grn breaks his neck? RELOADING!
I am with ou on this too. I can see me getting eaten by a bear and thinking, "Damn I knew I should have put in the 150 grn load instead of the 50 grn one!
Yeah the 50 grn load may kill him but the question is WHEN! I want to know that if I were to need it I have it at my disposal and worry about the tree I killed behind the bear later on. It's not like I have a repeating rifle or anything, all I have is one shot at best if something goes wrong in bear country. I would rather be alive than to have been PC and eaten by a bear:shocked2:
rabbit03 ( I want to know I broke his neck from the impact if I don't hit his brain or spine) :thumbsup:
PSS Oh and what do you think I am going to be doing when the 150 grn breaks his neck? RELOADING!
The ball is not just faster, it also has more than double the energy. More power can make up for a marginal hit. I am not trying to make a my rifle into a magnum,just shooting it to its potential.You "could" kill anything on this continent with a 22 long rifle with a perfect hit. It just is not prectical.
To each his own. I prefer bowhunting over BP and BP over modern. Boils down to what you[url] like.In[/url] all sincerity, I would like to shoot with you. I think I could learn from you.
To each his own. I prefer bowhunting over BP and BP over modern. Boils down to what you[url] like.In[/url] all sincerity, I would like to shoot with you. I think I could learn from you.
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cheatherly
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I don't know guys, I've seen how big those bears can get. I think something belt fed... :rotf:
Rabbit.. :rotf: from John H page 3 ,Hawken 3 on here is a pic of Bill Fuller and some org (I think) he used to maqke bears die. Belive the last one was in the trash and went to heaven with a shot from a org 54 or 53 and 1 haqndgun shot (it just wouldnt stay out of the trash at 2 or 3 am, John said, The late Bill Fuller was the premiere gunsmith in Alaska. Shoot, he might have been the only gunsmith in Alaska.
"He shot and hunted with original Hawkens; even wrote about using a heavy powder charge with two balls for Grizzly Bear hunting." Maybe Davy has a way to move pic over here ( :haha: )Fred :hatsoff:
"He shot and hunted with original Hawkens; even wrote about using a heavy powder charge with two balls for Grizzly Bear hunting." Maybe Davy has a way to move pic over here ( :haha: )Fred :hatsoff:
Fullstock58
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More velocity does not equal more killing power, yes it has more energy, more energy may cause less penetration in a round ball as there is more energy to distort/ destroy the ball faster.
Slow projectiles show a abnormal pattern for deep penetration when soft lead is used.
I will bet 99% of the time a 50cal ball will penetrate deeper at 1400fps then 2000fps in the same media.
Slow projectiles show a abnormal pattern for deep penetration when soft lead is used.
I will bet 99% of the time a 50cal ball will penetrate deeper at 1400fps then 2000fps in the same media.
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This certainly hasn't been my experience with my experiments with the same ball out of the same rifle and shooting at the same piece of wood. The higher the charge the deeper the ball went.
There is nothing wrong with heavy loads if you want to shoot them. That is one of the beautiful things about muzzleloading. You can take ten of the same rifle and give them to ten different guys and they will all shoot them differently. Me, I like to shoot a lot, and deer are the biggest target I am ever likely to have in this area. 70 grains of 2f under a 495 wrapped in a commercial pre-lubed patch is all I will ever need for most purposes, and more than I need a lot of the time. My Mountain rifle is as accurate at 100 grains as it is at 70. I just don't need that for deer.
Since I don't need it, and I already went thru the magnumitis stage, I shoot an accurate pleasant to shoot load that has little recoil. I watch deer at 100 yards all the time. If I think I am going to be shooting at 100 yards while hunting, I load up a Lee Target Minnie over 90 grains of powder in my slug gun. Little wind drift with better than I can hold accuracy. There are uses for heavy loads.
Since I don't need it, and I already went thru the magnumitis stage, I shoot an accurate pleasant to shoot load that has little recoil. I watch deer at 100 yards all the time. If I think I am going to be shooting at 100 yards while hunting, I load up a Lee Target Minnie over 90 grains of powder in my slug gun. Little wind drift with better than I can hold accuracy. There are uses for heavy loads.
I believe you can reach a point where the ball would be destroyed or severely distorted upon impact. I just don't think you are reaching that point out of a muzzleloader. If I can use my .535 ball instead of a 50 cal, I would take that bet.I would prefer to use powder caharges, say 50,75,100,125 and 150 grains of FFFG. The penetration will increase as the charge increases, IMHO.( I don't want to borrow a chronograph)
Can you make a kill on a deer size animal with a light charge ? Sure you can.The main thing is to shoot what you and your rifle like.If 50 grains of FFF floats your boat...great.If you like a little more thump jump it up to whatever you prefer (myself that is 100 grs of FFF).
More energy is a good indicator of "killling" power,along with bullet selection.Just like in archery, a slow heavy arrow can penetrate better tha a fast, light arrow. A faster,heavier arrow will out penetrate either one.
Can you make a kill on a deer size animal with a light charge ? Sure you can.The main thing is to shoot what you and your rifle like.If 50 grains of FFF floats your boat...great.If you like a little more thump jump it up to whatever you prefer (myself that is 100 grs of FFF).
More energy is a good indicator of "killling" power,along with bullet selection.Just like in archery, a slow heavy arrow can penetrate better tha a fast, light arrow. A faster,heavier arrow will out penetrate either one.
Fullstock58
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Understand a simple fact, more energy can work against you with pure lead balls "if penetration" means anything to you. The more energy you have will also act upon the ball if enough resistance is incountered. What you will have is energy acting on the ball flating/distorting it more, and the more out of shape it gets the less penetration you will have. But! you will get a bigger wound channel caused by the deformed ball and a bigger wound channel means more tramua on the critter. Keep in mind a 54/58cal ball already makes a big wound channel.
I'm an old bow hunter and as such I always will shoot a big game animal with a double lung shot, rifle or bow, they will run off 100 yards but won't last long, and it saves some meat and thats a plus.
Hardcast bullets shooters know this,the slower velocities will penetrate better then the same bullets with higher velocities. It's been proven time and again.
It makes sense, the longer a projectile remains unchanged the more it will penetrate, as the energy is being used to keep moving the bullet forward, not wasting energty on distorting it.
"More energy is a good indicator of "killing" power"
Thats not such a true statement as there are many cartidges out there that kill way better then the energy figures says it should, a 44mag comes to mind, as does most muzzleloaders with round balls, the west was tamed by Muzzleloaders that were close to the energy level of a 44mag, the old timers didn't have too much trouble with most critters, only the big Bears were the major concern.
I'm an old bow hunter and as such I always will shoot a big game animal with a double lung shot, rifle or bow, they will run off 100 yards but won't last long, and it saves some meat and thats a plus.
Hardcast bullets shooters know this,the slower velocities will penetrate better then the same bullets with higher velocities. It's been proven time and again.
It makes sense, the longer a projectile remains unchanged the more it will penetrate, as the energy is being used to keep moving the bullet forward, not wasting energty on distorting it.
"More energy is a good indicator of "killing" power"
Thats not such a true statement as there are many cartidges out there that kill way better then the energy figures says it should, a 44mag comes to mind, as does most muzzleloaders with round balls, the west was tamed by Muzzleloaders that were close to the energy level of a 44mag, the old timers didn't have too much trouble with most critters, only the big Bears were the major concern.
rabbit03
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Paul said,
Considering the Grizzley bear is protected, and can result in Federal Jail time, that would cost you your right to own or shoot a gun for the rest of your life, you might want to reconsider that statement. If you can track, and read sign, you will know when you have stumbled into a bear's territory. You will know how recently the bear has been where you are standing, whether its a boar, or a sow, with cubs, so that you can make noise, and avoid any kind of controntation.
Paul have you ever heard of Murphy's Law? Some things can't be avoided at no fault of our own.
LOAD FOR BEAR IF IN BEAR COUNTRY :thumbsup:
rabbit03
Considering the Grizzley bear is protected, and can result in Federal Jail time, that would cost you your right to own or shoot a gun for the rest of your life, you might want to reconsider that statement. If you can track, and read sign, you will know when you have stumbled into a bear's territory. You will know how recently the bear has been where you are standing, whether its a boar, or a sow, with cubs, so that you can make noise, and avoid any kind of controntation.
Paul have you ever heard of Murphy's Law? Some things can't be avoided at no fault of our own.
LOAD FOR BEAR IF IN BEAR COUNTRY :thumbsup:
rabbit03
rabbit03
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I believe you can reach a point where the ball would be destroyed or severely distorted upon impact. I just don't think you are reaching that point out of a muzzleloader
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
rabbit03 (Amen to the Whompability and not the explodeability)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
rabbit03 (Amen to the Whompability and not the explodeability)
paulvallandigham
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Actually, Rabbit, since I finally became a very good tracker, I don't get surprised by much of anything in the wild anymore. I am always reading sign, and listening to the other animals, and bird sounds. When you listen for concentric rings, they will tell you how far away an animal is, what kind it is, where its located, how fast its moving, and where its headed. Sit around the Bear exhbit at the zoo for a few days, just listening to the birds, and other animals when the bears move out into the exhibit. With patience you will learn which are the alarm sounders, and what their alarm calls sound like. You will learn when the alarm changes based on what the bear is doing, how close he is to the alarm caller, etc. Try to get to the zoo early, and see if you can arrange to be allowed into the exhibit area at dawn, even if you have to volunteer to do some work for free to get in. By the time most of us are going to work in the morning, the bears are heading back to sleep. You won't usually see them until just before the late afternoon feeding time. They are much more " natural " in the early morning.
While you are listening, watch how they walk, how they place each foot. If they walk close enough to the spectator area, use binoculars, or a scope to look at the foot impression( track) left by each foot, and then look at the gait pattern. They will usually be walking a slow walking gait. Only when two bears are playing will you see them jog or run. Its worth learning what each of those sets of tracks look like, too.
Unfortunately, you have to go to books to find out what bears are eating at various times of the year, and in various locations. You won't see this at the zoos. Bears are omnivores, and in the early spring, when they first come out of hibernation, they eat large amounts of fresh green grasses to fill their stomach. The new grass is sweet tasting, and actually does have a lot of sugar, which the bear then uses to turn into replacement fat. Bears eat berries in season, so be aware of what berry crops are in season in the area where you are going to hunt or hike. Learn to identify the plants, up close, and from afar. Avoid those areas when fruit is present and bears are in the area. If the deer are fawning, bears will hunt the fawns, and eat the afterbirth, fighting half a dozen species of mammals and birds for that food. Keep a good look out for bears at that time of year, usually April through June. Where fishing is good, you will find bears along the waterways eating fish. In the Fall, they will attack other animals to fill their need for lots of fat to help them survive the winter. Boars are not allowed around their cubs, by the sows. If you see cubs, or any small bear, less than 2 years old, you can bet that its mother is around, and you want to avoid her. Stop, listen, look, listen, and look again. She heard you long before you saw the cubs, and is watching and listening for you. She is trying to wind you so she can identify you by your smell. She will outwait you if you don't have patience. You don't want a sow bear stalking you because she thinks you are a Boar bear after her cubs. If you need to move, make a lot of noise, and people sounds, and move obliquely out of the valley where you see the cubs. The sooner your scent leaves that vale, the sooner she will stop worrying about you. This is when banging pots and pans can be your best weapon.
By all means, employ a guide when going into bear country.He knows these things i have written, and lots more. He knows the country, and has an idea of where bears are, where they are likely to be going, and where its safer to move to avoid them. When the locals find out I track, and read sign, we compare notes and decide what is the best thing to do. I will defer to their knowledge of a local area, but they always want my imput and observations, as I am better at reading sign than they are. They also understand better than most people how useful that skill is. I think they also like the fact that I have spent considerable effort learning everything I can about an area I am going to hunt, and about the lives of the animals that live there. I often know more about the food sources, and food chains of animals than they do. I in turn learn a lot of information from them I didn't know, and am not too proud to say so to them. We usually get along famously, although at some point they want to know how I can read tracks so well!
While you are listening, watch how they walk, how they place each foot. If they walk close enough to the spectator area, use binoculars, or a scope to look at the foot impression( track) left by each foot, and then look at the gait pattern. They will usually be walking a slow walking gait. Only when two bears are playing will you see them jog or run. Its worth learning what each of those sets of tracks look like, too.
Unfortunately, you have to go to books to find out what bears are eating at various times of the year, and in various locations. You won't see this at the zoos. Bears are omnivores, and in the early spring, when they first come out of hibernation, they eat large amounts of fresh green grasses to fill their stomach. The new grass is sweet tasting, and actually does have a lot of sugar, which the bear then uses to turn into replacement fat. Bears eat berries in season, so be aware of what berry crops are in season in the area where you are going to hunt or hike. Learn to identify the plants, up close, and from afar. Avoid those areas when fruit is present and bears are in the area. If the deer are fawning, bears will hunt the fawns, and eat the afterbirth, fighting half a dozen species of mammals and birds for that food. Keep a good look out for bears at that time of year, usually April through June. Where fishing is good, you will find bears along the waterways eating fish. In the Fall, they will attack other animals to fill their need for lots of fat to help them survive the winter. Boars are not allowed around their cubs, by the sows. If you see cubs, or any small bear, less than 2 years old, you can bet that its mother is around, and you want to avoid her. Stop, listen, look, listen, and look again. She heard you long before you saw the cubs, and is watching and listening for you. She is trying to wind you so she can identify you by your smell. She will outwait you if you don't have patience. You don't want a sow bear stalking you because she thinks you are a Boar bear after her cubs. If you need to move, make a lot of noise, and people sounds, and move obliquely out of the valley where you see the cubs. The sooner your scent leaves that vale, the sooner she will stop worrying about you. This is when banging pots and pans can be your best weapon.
By all means, employ a guide when going into bear country.He knows these things i have written, and lots more. He knows the country, and has an idea of where bears are, where they are likely to be going, and where its safer to move to avoid them. When the locals find out I track, and read sign, we compare notes and decide what is the best thing to do. I will defer to their knowledge of a local area, but they always want my imput and observations, as I am better at reading sign than they are. They also understand better than most people how useful that skill is. I think they also like the fact that I have spent considerable effort learning everything I can about an area I am going to hunt, and about the lives of the animals that live there. I often know more about the food sources, and food chains of animals than they do. I in turn learn a lot of information from them I didn't know, and am not too proud to say so to them. We usually get along famously, although at some point they want to know how I can read tracks so well!
