Hawken history

[soquili]

Anybody got a favorite website on the history of the Hawken rifle (flintlock or percussion)?

How common were percussion Hawken's in the Fur Trade? I know they came in late, if at all...

I'm trying to justify carrying a .50cal Hawken percussion to a 'voo - OK OK OK, I'm going to get a flintlock later :: but I sure like my Hawken....
::
Patsy

 

[halfstock]

Patsy: Hawkins were probably considered a rich trappers rifle, but there were a lot of mountain style rifles used, you carry whatever you like if it fits your time frame and don't let the grouches bug ya on it . One thing to do to find out the things you really want to know is lots of research and a little common sence. :m2c: :results: :relax: :hatsoff:
Halfstock

 

I don't think you have to worry about going to a 'voos with a percussion Hawken. I do not know of any good online source for Hawken history, but Don Stith's site has some, I think. There are various books out there by Baird and by Hanson and others...The Hawkens came from an old family of gunmakers and may have made flintlocks in St Louis before their more common percussion rifles, but I don't know of any survivors (maybe one that was converted). Percussion caps have been found in archeological studies at the Alamo (1836), and some records of rendezvous' mention them, so the caplock rifle was present in the west in some numbers. The early fur trade of course was flintlock longrifle or trade gun/fusil dominated. Most rondys call for pre-1840 items and a percussion Hawken works....oops! I meant to say the Hawken Shop site for history, Don also makes fine Hawkens....

 

[musketman]

Actually, from what I gathered, a Hawken would have been a rare sight at any rendezvous, Hollywood is to blame for putting a Hawken in the hands of every trapper...

I'm not saying they weren't there, Jim Bridger had one at one point in his life, I'm saying that they were in limited quantities...

This Hawken was owned by Jim Bridger in 1850, it now is part of the Montana Historical Society...

:imo: If you really want to wow them, show up packing a Model 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle...

 

Yes Hawkens may have been rare at rondys, but she has one and was asking about whether she could carry one there...Several of the mountain men owned Hawken rifles (Carson, Modena, Bridger, etc...)but they probably started out with other guns.... :m2c:

 

[musketman]

I agree, she will be fine with it...

 

[halfstock]

Yep and one of the Hawkens worked on the 1803 and when ya look at the two I'd say he got a lot of his idea's from that for his Hawken. :imo: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

Halfstock

 

[vsparto]

A cap lock Great Plains rifle would be more PC.

The cap locks of the time were probably converted kentucky longrifle style flint locks. Try this web site
http://www.bbhc.org/firearms/index.cfm

Even though the hawken should be fine. You can say you were one of the richer traders or you won it in a shootin match. If you was crossing the plains in your wagon you probably would have been carrying a no frills barn rifle of smooth bore with shot.

 

I'm trying to justify carrying a .50cal Hawken percussion to a 'voo - OK OK OK, I'm going to get a flintlock later :: but I sure like my Hawken....
::
Patsy

Just check your event standards Patsy. If it is a simple pre-1840 rondy you can pretty much do as you desire. I see Traditions sidelocks with the one remrod thimble thing, many CVA squirrel rifles and all kinds of "hawkin repros" at the pre-1840 events. Almost all of them are percussion.

Percussion/flint, they don't care. It would not suprise me to see a scope sighted in-line on the firing line at most rondys. Most of them will allow anything to get your registration fee.

Look around you. Once you get past the mountain men in Rebocks, Great Western Bowie knives, men wearing road kills and women in polyester "prarie dresses" you'll see that any historic standards have pretty much gone out the window at most rondys.

I don't mean to be super critical, but just about the time I got used to seeing tee-pees in Ohio I look up and someone has pitched a green army surplus puptent at the end of our camp street. :shake:

 

[roundball]

Anybody got a favorite website on the history of the Hawken rifle (flintlock or percussion)?

How common were percussion Hawken's in the Fur Trade? I know they came in late, if at all...

I'm trying to justify carrying a .50cal Hawken percussion to a 'voo - OK OK OK, I'm going to get a flintlock later :: but I sure like my Hawken....
::
Patsy

1970, Rochester, New Hampshire www.tcarms.com

:crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[thomas]

Roundball expand your horizon, their are other warranties out there!

Thomas :imo:

 

[roundball]

Roundball expand your horizon, their are other warranties out there!

Thomas :imo:

I guess you missed that it was a joke?

 

[thomas]

Well I guess you missed it too, as I was joking has well!

Thomas

P.S. Everyone is not talking about you & not putting down TC firearms, Your the one reading the bad in it.

 

[sidelock]

Actually, from what I gathered, a Hawken would have been a rare sight at any rendezvous, Hollywood is to blame for putting a Hawken in the hands of every trapper...

I'm not saying they weren't there, Jim Bridger had one at one point in his life, I'm saying that they were in limited quantities...

This Hawken was owned by Jim Bridger in 1850, it now is part of the Montana Historical Society...

:imo: If you really want to wow them, show up packing a Model 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle...

I have seen JB's rifle many times---Every time I am in Helena-- and robery is in my mind every time (not realy-- want others to view it also). Folks-- this is one beauty. :agree: :m2c:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

It would have been very possible to see a Hawken rifle at one of the rendevous in the early 1830's period.

For example the Mariano Modena J & S Hawken rifle was made in 1831 and the last rendevous was when, 1836 or 37. The great popularity though, of the Hawken did not come about until after the end of the fur trade.

The late Charles E. Hanson, former curator of the Museum of The Fur Trade, wrote an excellant book on the Hawken. Titled THE HAWKEN RIFLE; IT'S PLACE IN HISTORY, Mr. Hanson's research dispells many of the Hawken myths.

Mr. Hanson had access to many surviving business records from the Hawken Shop and other St. Louis business' and was able to put together an accurate picture of the Hawken history and story. The book has a number of photos of Hawkens and other rifles that were carried by the trappers of the fur trade.

One of the things that Mr. Hanson established was that most likely no more than a sum total of 2500 Hawken rifles were ever made

Carrying a Hawken rifle to a rendevous should not be a problem, so go ahead and do it.

Best regards,

John L. Hinnant

 

[soquili]

Actually, from what I gathered, a Hawken would have been a rare sight at any rendezvous, Hollywood is to blame for putting a Hawken in the hands of every trapper...

I'm not saying they weren't there, Jim Bridger had one at one point in his life, I'm saying that they were in limited quantities...

This Hawken was owned by Jim Bridger in 1850, it now is part of the Montana Historical Society...

:imo: If you really want to wow them, show up packing a Model 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle...

Sure is a purty Hawken! I paid more attention to the Native American part of the museum in Helena the last time I was up there in 1995, before I got into 'voo stuff, wish I'd seen that rifle though. The one thing I remember most about mountain man stuff there, was the contrast between a mountain man's buckskin shirt with grease and dirt all down the front, compared to the Crow and Lakota brain-tan shirts, which were CLEAN.
:: :crackup:

That Model 1803 Harper's Ferry is fine-lookin' too, found a pic of it, a nice early percussion Hawken, and some Hawken history here (thanks,vsparto!):
http://www.bbhc.org/firearms/collections.cfm
It says, in part:
"The muzzleloading Hawken rifles were among the finest known to western mountain men during the late fur trade era. They were famous for their accuracy and reliability. The St. Louis gunshop of brothers Jacob and Samuel Hawken employed over a dozen men and could produce about 100 rifles a year. Many famous mountain men including Jim Bridger and John "Liver Eating" Johnson used Hawken rifles. The rifle featured here has a 33

 

It is funny how a couple of you assume that she is talking about a T/C Hawken, when all she said was "Hawken". The GPR is just another Hawken clone. There were real Hawken rifles! My first (and only, but I traded it off) was a custom copy of a real Hawken in a museum in Taos. Ithaca, Green River Rifle works, the Hawken Shop, and many others made true Hawken copies--the T/C is not the only rifle out there with the name! And of all of them it is the least authentic copy! [as I said previously on another thread, the T/C resembles late plains rifles of the post rondy era.]

 

[vsparto]

Check out this website. http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/museum/index.html

According to the information they provide the PA longrifle was the most common firearm during the fur trade pereiod.

 

[soquili]

...For example the Mariano Modena J & S Hawken rifle was made in 1831 and the last rendevous was when, 1836 or 37. The great popularity though, of the Hawken did not come about until after the end of the fur trade.

The late Charles E. Hanson, former curator of the Museum of The Fur Trade, wrote an excellant book on the Hawken. Titled THE HAWKEN RIFLE; IT'S PLACE IN HISTORY, Mr. Hanson's research dispells many of the Hawken myths.

Mr. Hanson had access to many surviving business records from the Hawken Shop and other St. Louis business' and was able to put together an accurate picture of the Hawken history and story. The book has a number of photos of Hawkens and other rifles that were carried by the trappers of the fur trade.

One of the things that Mr. Hanson established was that most likely no more than a sum total of 2500 Hawken rifles were ever made

Carrying a Hawken rifle to a rendevous should not be a problem, so go ahead and do it.

Best regards,

John L. Hinnant

Thanks, John, for the book source, I'll have to check that one out, sounds good!
:thanks: :thumbsup:
Patsy

 

[soquili]

Check out this website. http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/museum/index.html

According to the information they provide the PA longrifle was the most common firearm during the fur trade pereiod.

Thanks again, vsparto! :thumbsup:
This link on that site: http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/museum/goods/goods.html
has a pic of "copper kettles" and "nesting kettles" that I was looking for to justify that "corn boilers" were period. I found another site which said corn boilers were not in use until the civil war, but I've found tin kettles and sheet iron kettles on traders' lists for the fur trade, so I think it's a matter of semantics. Most folks nowadays think of "kettles" as being round-bottomed, flared lip objects, not straight-sided ones. Just another example of confusion in terms, between 1800 terminology and todays' usage.
:sorry: ff: ::

Back to rifles, this page
http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/museum/guns/guns.html
has some good pics on it too. I do like that 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle, and since my last name is Harper and my ancestors on that side came from Virginia to Texas by way of Alabama, maybe I ought to get me one of those for a flinter... ::
Patsy