Hawken Rifles, What's All The Hoopla?!

[Dispatch]

Okay, so it's okay to wear sears work suits and carry a a t/c Hawken? How about a zouave? It's not a black and white thing. You try and do better each event. And so, you also want to ban old guys?

No, I agree, it's not okay...

BUT... it is additionally not ok for all the many other MAJOR violations I mentioned, event organizers turn a blind eye to, that which are much, much WORSE, how come that is?

‘Practice what you preach’.

Another cancer on the hobby is the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude like yours, so-called elder reenactors put upon newbies, that which turns more people away from reenacting for every time period, than the steep price tag that comes with investing in the hobby in the first place...

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

LOL, how f n sad is that. The sport is dying literally and some bunch of HC/PC curmudgeons would keep some one out because they did not spend enough money? WOW.

They are historic reenactors and require authenticity. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

They are historic reenactors and require authenticity. Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, i agree. I also think that pretty soon, they also will be "history".

 

[Mark E. Prickett]

I just want to compete in some muzzleloading events. I really don't have a desire to play dress up.

 

[bptactical]

Y'all are like a bunch of old ladies at a sewing circle.....stop swingin your purses around willy nilly- somebody is gonna get their lemonade spilt and then it's on for real....

 

[bptactical]

I think the "Hoopla" of the Hawken rifle is this- It was the pinnacle of cap fired rifles. All of the subtle improvements over the years culminated into it's final form before it was surpassed by technology. It's form was the art, it's art was the form.
Purpose built and the best for that purpose at that given time/place in history.
Never to be repeated.


Kinda the same way the P-51 Mustang was the pinnacle of piston/propeller aircraft. Again, purpose built and the best for that purpose at that given time/place in history.
Never to be repeated.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I always thought of them as an 1800's reimagining of a jaeger rifle.... In any case, everything having to do with muzzleloading got very popular in the 1970's due to interest in the Bicentennial. The hawken style rifle rode the extra wave of the movies "Jeremiah Johnson" 1972 (very good and very popular), and "The Mountain Men" 1980 which romanticized the western fur trade. Heavy marketing by Thompson-Center also helped.

In practical terms they are no better; and no worse; than a long rifle. It all depends on whether you like the style.

I’ve always thought of the Hawken/Plains rifles as American re-inventions of Jeager…large calibre short stocky guns built to with-stand heavy recoiling loads and harsh treatment for extended periods of time.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I just never could particularly like the "Hawkens" plains rifles; in fact I didn't much care for halfstock rifles period. The fur trade era never interested me like the colonial/early American period did. I simply love most everything about longrifles as long as they use flint. The Hawkens plains rifles were heavy and many westerners preferred the Leman or other makes because of this. Many longrifles were carried west as they were quite common, relatively speaking.

I get it…I grew up shooting blackpowder at a time when everyone and their cousin shot 1/2 stocks and commercial manufacturers all called their products Hawken Rifles. I shot a CVA Mountain Rifle…1/2 Stock Hawkenesque rifle.

I was at a shoot one day, and the guy next to me was shooting a full-stock Hawken. Wow…I could not take my eyes off that gun, I could not focus at all. Worst day of shooting on the line…EVER.

I have been in love with full-stock rifles ever since; and not just Hawken/Plains Rifles

Just this year I had an early flintlock plains rifle made…I love this gun.

You can thank @BigAl52 for that bottom image, that top and middle pair of amazing rifles, are his…

 

[Okie Hog]

All the forged muzzleloader barrels were made from wrought iron.

Kinda the same way the P-51 Mustang was the pinnacle of piston/propeller aircraft.

Pretty much.

Way back when i watched a congressional hearing on the Air Force adoption of the A-10 (Wart Hog) aircraft. One fossilized congressman brought up the fact that hundreds of perfectly good Mustangs were parked in the desert. He made an argument for having the parked Mustangs converted into a tank killers.

 

[BigAl52]

I like Hawken rifles. Always have and always will. But I also like the Tennessee's, Lancasters, and Southern rifles.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

@BigAl52 I just love that gun.

 

[BigAl52]

54 caliber 1 1/8 ACF barrel 30 inch. Its a brute but it shoulders fine and is fun to shoot.

 

[sturmkatze]

I just want to compete in some muzzleloading events. I really don't have a desire to play dress up.

Then do so

 

[sturmkatze]

No, I agree, it's not okay...

BUT... it is additionally not ok for all the many other MAJOR violations I mentioned, event organizers turn a blind eye to, that which are much, much WORSE, how come that is?

‘Practice what you preach’.

Another cancer on the hobby is the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude like yours, so-called elder reenactors put upon newbies, that which turns more people away from reenacting for every time period, than the steep price tag that comes with investing in the hobby in the first place... View attachment 161291

You don't know the first thing about me arsch mit ohren. Not one damned thing. As far as I can see, you're one of those bloated "hard core" types that drive people away. I retired from wwi after 31 years and turned my unit over to young guys. Guess what, old guys trying to be soldiers is wrong. Are you staying to long? I could care less about farb camp gear. Go to your "hard core" camp and you can do what you want. Oh wait, you reenacted in the 70s, so you're more of a geezer than me. Far be it for me to criticize your impression, but...

 

[DuncNZ]

My attempts to get a reasonably authentic Plains Rifle went , TC Hawken .45, Pedersoli Tryon.45 , Uberti Hawken .54 , and now a Leman .54 . That will be my last caplock plains rifle .
I think of the Hawken's (and other plains rifles) as horse guns , Carrying a heavy rifle on a horse is not a problem , the short barrels made them easy to use off a horse and faster to load ,The larger calibers made them a "stopping rifle" , the strength of the rifles enabled them to suffer falls and hard knocks as well as wear and tear, the rounded fore sight wouldn't snag in a blanket bag when it was being rapidly withdrawn in an emergency , The hooked breach and keys were for easy removal of the barrel . I seem to remember reading where trappers used the breaches of their rifles to dig a fur Cache .

I always wanted a Browning Plains rifle , I finally got my hands one, a new .54 , There is no way that rifle was a Hawken copy , It was intended to be a copy of the first rifle built by J M Browning and was advertised as such , The rams head on the breach put me off , the fittings looked and felt wrong to me , there was something almost artificial about their manufacture and finish . The stock was not up to my expectations , The whole thing had a feel that it was entirely machine made and had not been touched by humans , maybe it is just me but I did not like it .

 

[HighUintas]

Something to note, is the half stock English sporting rifle and the time period it was built in. @dave_person has built some fine examples. The Hawken rifle strangely has many of the same features, was built primarily in a later period than the ESR, and was built in a river/trade town that regularly received goods from the east coast that had been imported from England.

The Hawken brothers seemingly just added a longer tang, second barrel key, and more curved/narrow buttplate. BUT, that doesn't make it any less awesome.

 

[Philip Lebow]

Have never owned an original, but shot one at a rondy, that a philanthropist allowed me to for some reason.
Probably to stop me from staring.
Recently got a Hawken Shop kit. I do like my Chamber's flinters, but they are not light either.
The real Hawken I shot, just seemed to fit me. I am short with thick chest, wide shoulders, short arms. Maybe I am similar in size to the guy the rifle was built for. Recoil was not punishing. But just my opinion.
I have some contemporary Hawken-esque rifles that are fun to shoot, but nothing like the real one.
But I like them all.
Possibly some of the Hawken appeal to us modern guys, is that they provided a lead in aesthetic to the cartridge arms.
Half stock and all that.
Just guessing.

 

[Coinneach]

Yes, i agree. I also think that pretty soon, they also will be "history".

Inevitable for all of us as its always been.

 

[Coinneach]

All the forged muzzleloader barrels were made from wrought iron.

Pretty much.

Way back when i watched a congressional hearing on the Air Force adoption of the A-10 (Wart Hog) aircraft. One fossilized congressman brought up the fact that hundreds of perfectly good Mustangs were parked in the desert. He made an argument for having the parked Mustangs converted into a tank killers.

You can make light of it, but in those days it could have been a more than reasonable alternative for a while; witness the Nigerian Civil war when the Biafran seperatists successfully used Rocket equipped Light aircraft in both air combat and ground attack roles; again the Rhodesian bush war where so called obsolete Hawker Hunter aircraft played a major role in ground attack support for our Rhodesian ground troops particularly on external operations.

 

[Daveboone]

I think thier popularity issimpler than we make it out to be. Sure, there is alot of history, etc., but...in a traditional styled ML, the combination of the hooked breech, removeable barrel, percussion ignition, more easily handled length and durability of the shorter stock all contribute to a handier hunting rifle.
that said, Hawkens are the role model, but there were dozens...or hundreds, of gunsmiths manufacturing rifles along the same lines, all developed concurrently. Just the same as there was no one "Kentucky" or "Pennsylvania" long rifle manufactureer. Many individual shops all contributed their portion to the development.
Just the same today, although the general characteristics may be present in dozens of different "Hawken" type rifles, they differ...neither for good or bad...as the rifles did almost two hundred years ago.