Hawken Rifles, What's All The Hoopla?!

[DuncNZ]

Track of the Wolf have English flints for $2.50 each or $25 for 12 , Shop around

 

[Patched]

To the OP’s question:
The hoopla is just that… hoopla…the allure and tales of America’s Wild West, with it’s colorful heroes, large wild beasts, savages, untold riches for the adventurous, outlaws, marshals, trappers, cowboys etc has fascinated us and the whole world for many generations.

In the mix, icon characters, icon guns, myths and legends emerged.
Sam Colt handguns, Sharpes rifles and Hawken rifles all made the list of legendary American west gunlore…
the J.Johnson movie and Baird buckskinner trist in the 70s/80s stoked the Hawken fire well beyond the known historical evidence…sturdy large caliber halfstock rifles were in use by British sportsman and American military by 1803 and later percussion caps and patent breeches only made the guns even better…

Jacob Hawken took that knowledge from his Harper’sFerry employment right to his own gunshop ASAP.
J.Hawken (later with Sam) offered the latest gun technology of the day right there on the edge of the frontier…that created a reputation at the time that got his rifles mentioned in the scant writings of the day…even being mentioned is cause for myth and legend…
I love all 5 of the ones I’ve built.

 

[vintovka]

All this talk prompted me to haul my "custom" .54 browning barreled hawken out of the safe where it has been since 2014. It weighs in at 9.3 pounds unloaded (10.1# in .45). It is at the max for this old bod at the range standing but doable so far. That said i will continue to prefer my recently resurretcted 40" barreled .45 "frankenflinter" for heft, carry and shooing.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I ran across the website showing this interesting rifle not too long ago. We are not supposed to link directly to auction and sales listings, but since this one already sold, I hope I'm "legal." If not, the moderators can mete out my punishment and I'll take it like a man. This is just too good to not share.

Anyway, take a gander at this


Identified by the seller as originally an "English/American Flintlock Rifle" made by W.&G. Chance of Birmingham in the 1790-1820 period, and later (1840's?) converted to percussion. They described the rifle as .577 caliber. They show a couple dozen detailed photographs here: Tortuga Trading Co.: English Half-Stock

This rifle has a lot of features that look very familiar to us Hawken nuts.

...and it's hard to believe they just laid that beauty down on the bricks to take the pictures. I think I would have put down some padding.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Patched]

I ran across the website showing this interesting rifle not too long ago. We are not supposed to link directly to auction and sales listings, but since this one already sold, I hope I'm "legal." If not, the moderators can mete out my punishment and I'll take it like a man. This is just too good to not share.

Anyway, take a gander at this

View attachment 177012
Identified by the seller as originally an "English/American Flintlock Rifle" made by W.&G. Chance of Birmingham in the 1790-1820 period, and later (1840's?) converted to percussion. They described the rifle as .577 caliber. They show a couple dozen detailed photographs here: Tortuga Trading Co.: English Half-Stock

This rifle has a lot of features that look very familiar to us Hawken nuts.

...and it's hard to believe they just laid that beauty down on the bricks to take the pictures. I think I would have put down some padding.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Glad you posted this…I’ve suspected Jacob Hawken took the pulse of the gun market of the day at Harper’s Ferry Arsenal …positioned himself with a viable product at just the right location…business was so good he waved in his brother Sam…Sam lived on to bask in the glory of the myths with a write up in the Denver newspaper.

 

[Ross5403]

I see the draw when it comes to the shorter rifle being more maneuverable. Personally, and I know I may get beat for this, I have never cared for them. Nothing really draws me to them, seems there are so many that there is nothing real special about them to me. It's kind of like the Corolla of guns to me, it may get you where your going but it's nothing to brag about. I know there are those who love them and more power to them but just not my thing.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I think they look good, but I prefer a flatter butt plate. Never liked the Hawken style butt. Also do not like a "straight" barrel of 15/16 to 1 in or more. HEAVY! I like swamped barrels. Other than that, I love the hooked breech and keyed barrel!!

 

[Herb]

Notchy Bob, that is sure close to a Hawken, thanks. It is interesting that the tang bolt comes into the trigger loop rather than ahead of it, as it does in Hawkens.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thank you, @Herb , for your comments.

That is an interesting observation. You know a lot more about these rifles than I do, and I missed that! However, I think the early J&S Hawken owned by the Montana Historical Society has the tang bolt exiting inside the trigger guard, also:



I believe this particular J&S rifle, as well as one described by Mr. Baird and now in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center Collection, both have a "pineapple" finial on the forward extension of the triggerguard, much like on that W&G Chance English rifle in my post above. The Chance rifle, however, has a single trigger and a very short tang.

In some of his writing, the late Charles Hanson suggested Jacob and Samuel Hawken may have blended features of iron mounted southern rifles with characteristics of some English rifles to come up with their iconic "Mountain Rifle." I am inclined to believe it. The long tang, extending well down the wrist, is something I associate more with southern mountain rifles than with longrifles from anywhere else. It is looking to me as if the really early J&S rifles shared a lot of features with English guns, and maybe the southern influence came more gradually. That is all supposition on my part.

Here are some links that may be of interest. This first one will take you to the description and images of the early J&S Hawken rifle in the Montana Historical Society Collections: MHS Hawken Rifle

This link goes to the McCracken Research Library at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West: BBHC Hawken Rifle The page in the link has additional links to nine separate images. I am very sure that the second image, and the last four (starting from the top of the list) all show different views of the same rifle, which is another early J&S Hawken. I think this is probably the same rifle described by John Baird in chapter 3 of Hawken Rifles, the Mountain Man's Choice, "Early Hawken Rifle."

Finally, this is the link to the page showing the W&G Chance rifle mentioned in post #304 (above): Tortuga Trading Co. W&G Chance Rifle There are roughly two dozen additional detail photographs of this rifle on that page.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Herb]

Thanks, Notchy Bob. I handled, measured and photographed that rifle and did not notice the tang bolt. I think I was on sensory overload.

 

[CVA Enthusiast]

$30-$40 I can still get 1500 caps for $20 I see no need for the flint, Someone else already loves that rifle offered me $50 more than what I had in it, gone...

 

[Nazgul58]

Let us all know where

$30-$40 I can still get 1500 caps for $20 I see no need for the flint, Someone else already loves that rifle offered me $50 more than what I had in it, gone...

Let us all know where you can buy these caps...........

Don

 

[FishDFly]

$30-$40 I can still get 1500 caps for $20 I see no need for the flint, Someone else already loves that rifle offered me $50 more than what I had in it, gone...

And just where are buying 1500 caps for $20, inquiring buyers would just love to know?

Honesty is a virtue, please let us all know.

 

[david w]

Thanks, Notchy Bob. I handled, measured and photographed that rifle and did not notice the tang bolt. I think I was on sensory overload.

Me too, neither!

 

[LME]

Agree. Why would having to have one of these first run rifles be so terribly important to us average shooters? I guess there's not a single gun, rifle, pistol, I own that are the original or of the first run. Come to think about it, neither is my camper, car, pickup, or all the other stuff that I've collected through a lifetime of just living. To own any of those things I've mentioned, I would have had to be of a much earlier time. I wasn't, I am happy with that as many of the diseases and dreads of that generation didn't get me either. I shoot these modern look-alikes that are just as much fun, or even more so than the originals, and I don't have to stay awake at night wondering how I'm going to protect them. I am totally amazed at what some people think that valuable really means.
Squint

You are spot on!

 

[Snake Pleskin]

$30-$40 I can still get 1500 caps for $20 I see no need for the flint, Someone else already loves that rifle offered me $50 more than what I had in it, gone...

where can you get 1500 caps for $20 bucks???

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Looks fine. whats the diff between GPRs and Investarms if any?

None Investarms is a manufacturere. GPR is Great Plains Rifle, that is the name Lyman gave to their Investarms produced Hawken style rifle. Investarms still makes the Lyman GPR, now called a Gemmer hawken and Pedersoli also make the Lyman style GPR. The Pedersoli version is a little finer, requires less fine tuning, stock work etc. but other than that, they are almost identical, IMHO

 

[nhmoose]

¢2 my ¢2 says that works!!!

 

[Seeleybc1]

I think they look good, but I prefer a flatter butt plate. Never liked the Hawken style butt. Also do not like a "straight" barrel of 15/16 to 1 in or more. HEAVY! I like swamped barrels. Other than that, I love the hooked breech and keyed barrel!!

I’m on board here. Hawken lines are nice, hooked breech etc very practical. But it does seem in some ways to be a regression, with regards to weight, balance, ease of carry. I suppose they fit their niche though. The English sporting rifle vibe has been more and more interesting to me lately

 

[Texas Gil]

My experience has been when I still hunted with my Sharon 54 cal it seemed clunky while moving around brush etc but when it came time to get focused a a deer I never noticed the weight and my aim was ALWAYS very steady and never worried about pulled shots! They work where it counts superbly!