Hawkens ???

[Keppy]

I have been reading on history of the Hawkens family and about Hawkens rifles. I read that they were made in full stock at first. Then made in half stock. Flintlock and cap lock. So is it the double triggers that identifies the Hawkens rifle as Hawkens? I see that they were not a light rifles, up to 10 lbs or more. 1 inch to 1 1/8 across the flat. And long pipes on some too. Thanks

 

[bibletotingunslinger]

Not that it will help, but it may, may I suggest finding and reading Foxfire Five, its a good book.
I learned a lot from it. It will be hard to find.

 

[gordon focht]

your public library can get one,

if they don't have one, one can be

loaned to them.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Here's a good place to find out more .
>>>BOOK

 

[boar]

Hacksaw These guys here say there weren't any flintlock Hawkens all were cap locks. I don't beleive they were all cap. Some off the mountain men wouldn't trust being able to get caps,what if you got them wet.or ran out, they would feel more secure with flint. Just becuase there isn't any survivers don't prove to me that there wern't any. just my 2cts Dilly

 

[Mike Brooks]

I think everyone here agrees that Sam Hawken had to have made flint rifles in St. Louis in the 20's and probably 30's. It's just that none that have survived have turned up yet.

 

[Keppy]

Ok I know there is not a S at the end of Hawken. I miss typed. Sorry about that. But the question I had asked was

So is it the double triggers that identifies the Hawken rifle as Hawken?

I guess I should ask what makes it a Hawken style rifle? Or was it the hooked breech barrel?Here's a piece I read and was why I'm asking.
"Jake Hawken opened his own gunshop in St. Louis in 1815 after building Kentuckys in his father's shop in Maryland. For the first few years he worked alone furnishing guns for the infant West Fur trade. In 1822, his brother Sam joined him and gradually a new form of rifle emerged which we know as the Hawken.
These rifles are normally of .50 cal to .58 cal and 1 to 1 1/8 inches across the barrel flats. Barrel length is between 30 and 42 inches but most commonly 34 inches, for an all up weight of around 9 to 10 pounds. It comes standard with a silver blade front sight, buckhorn rear sight, set triggers and hookbreech and while browned steel furniture was usual, there were a couple of brass Hawkens in existence. Fullstocks were usually earlier than 1830 and had different shaped trigger guards and butt plates. The fullstocks were usually Flintlock and the later half stock style were normally in precussion.

 

[Mike Brooks]

So is it the double triggers that identifies the Hawken rifle as Hawken?

Nope, that can't be it as the germans were using set triggers back in the 1500's.....

 

You might want to check out the Hawken Rile sections in the Percussion Forum.

 

[J.D.]

Check out Hanson's book on the Hawken brothers, and their guns. Hanson cites Hawken shop work orders that only show repair work until about 1833, if my memory is correct. The first record of a St. Louis made Hawken is 1833.

There may have been some rifles made prior to that, but pretty comprehenisve records don't indicate that.

Track of the Wolf's web page should have Hanson's book for sale.

Baird's book is good too, but new information has come to light, since Baird's book was published, that refutes his information.
J.D.

 

[Bountyhunter]

The Foxfire books are available on Amazon.

Bill

 

[ol vern]

The Hawken Rifle:It's Place In History

By Charles Hanson tells it like it was.

 

[faw3]

Hacksaw Im not sure anyone really gave you a answer. What makes a Hawken stand out or what put them into history? I dont know that any one thing stands out that makes a Hawken different than some other rifles, saying that I add it has a great line front to back, the later half stocks are tough hard to break, why so widely known? Good PR, from the news papers, 5 cent or dime books of the time. I think (not sure) they at the time built the rifle that was needed in the west movement,in the 40s/50s. They got feed back on what was needed and went to work on it, I havent found anything by Hanson saying Baird was wrong on that point, buy the books by Hanson for facts, and Barid for starting it out, his MB series is great (and cheap thru NMLRA) See Hawken 1 in perc for dates,buy "Bs" books for the love of the rifle he surely did and Hanson didnt like it. Hope that will help, no one thing stands out makeing the Hawken different but the name really, and for many, like myself thats enough. Hope that helps. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[T-bone]

I think everyone here agrees that Sam Hawken had to have made flint rifles in St. Louis in the 20's and probably 30's. It's just that none that have survived have turned up yet.

Mike,.... This post is not addressed to you in particular, but I find your opinion to be very close to my own.

Here's a question I've always had in the back of my mind,...... why wouldn't the early fullstock flint rifles built by Sam also be considered as bonified "Hawken" rifles?????

I guess what I'm saying is,.... if "Beck, Haines, Dicket,and etc., had went on to build halfstock plains rifles, wouldn't their earlier work (fullstocks) also continue to carry their names, or would we now simply refer to their fullstocks as "Kentucky style" rifles?

I hope my question makes sense. :haha:

T-bone/rollingb

 

[Mike Brooks]

why wouldn't the early fullstock flint rifles built by Sam also be considered as bonified "Hawken" rifles?????

I agrre with you 100%. To me , the Hawken signature or stamp on the top barrel flat is the only thing that makes a Hawken rifle a "Hawken".
The Hawken Bros. had no momopoly on heavy 1/2 stocked plains rifles. :winking:

 

[Keppy]

fw I just thought maybe there was something that stood out on the Hawken rifle, that was so pronounced that you knew its a Hawken. Besides the stamp of course. So any half stock, single trigger or double set triggers styled rifle could be called a Hawken. I just find the history interesting. Its a great forum.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Here, this may help you out some as to what a Hawken rifle looked like and all the different varieties they made in St. Louis.
>>>>DON STITH'S WEB SITE

 

So any half stock, single trigger or double set triggers styled rifle could be called a Hawken.

NO!!! - this is what TC did back in the 70's and it's WRONG! ONLY those rifles signed by the Hawken's family are a "true" Hawken. Otherwise it's like saying all sports cars with wheels and a big engine can be called a Stingray.
The "classic" St Louis made Hawken mountain rifle is distinctive due to many things not just one or two items, all of which were shared by other make, but the Hawken rifle to those who have studied them extensively do have a style of line and form that was their's and their's alone even if others look similar. Sorry but there is no simplistic answer for what makes a Hawken a Hawken.

As for Hanson's Hawken book - PLEASE do not make it more than it is - even Dr Hanson warns one of this in the book. There has been 23 years of additional research since then and the book itself is NOT and never was the final word on the subject.

As always others mileage will vary....from one who has spent 40 years studying the subject....

 

[tnlonghunter]

It seems like it would be more fair to call the heavy-barrelled, large caliber, half-stock guns like that "plains rifles." A camaro and a charger could both be called muscle cars, but there still not the same.

 

[faw3]

Aa Baird said also, and it has been years since anything has been in print. In answer to the Q I guess guys that like Hawken rifles will know one when they see it . Not a good answer but....FRED :hatsoff: