From all I can gather reading here is even the original Hawken rifles did not look like original Hawken rifles. No two were exactly the same.
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Hawkin rifles
- Thread starter Rick Son
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And they only made a coupla hundred, pricey, guns per year at MOST at the height of their careers! Lotta experts pawing over very few extant examples of Hawken rifles today, influenced by alotta myths based on books and movies, and then making promulgations about what's "right" and volunteering that people buying production guns called Hawkens are wrong.
I don't recall ever seeing Jeremiah Johnson and I think I owned a video (that was a black platic box with magnetic tape) copy of The Mountain Men (with Charleton Heston maybe?) and it was so bad I didn't watch the whole thing and gave it away so maybe I am at a disadvantage...
I don't recall ever seeing Jeremiah Johnson and I think I owned a video (that was a black platic box with magnetic tape) copy of The Mountain Men (with Charleton Heston maybe?) and it was so bad I didn't watch the whole thing and gave it away so maybe I am at a disadvantage...
It would seem to me that with all the varied differences we can point to in the Hawken guns that to say 'this is right and that is wrong' is kinda silly.
To my eyes the modern knock offs look more like the old rifles than they don't look like them. Yes there are differences but they are trivial.
Why trivial? Because it doesn't matter. Things like a small difference in a measurement doesn't take away from the appearance.
My bet is that if the Hawken brothers were to see a modern 'Hawken' they would recognize it as a proper mountain gun.
To my eyes the modern knock offs look more like the old rifles than they don't look like them. Yes there are differences but they are trivial.
Why trivial? Because it doesn't matter. Things like a small difference in a measurement doesn't take away from the appearance.
My bet is that if the Hawken brothers were to see a modern 'Hawken' they would recognize it as a proper mountain gun.
"My bet is that if the Hawken brothers were to see a modern 'Hawken' they would recognize it as a proper mountain gun."
Is not copying a form of flattery?
A manufacturer naming something they want to and then others finding fault because it does not exactly resemble the original is kind of a waste of time.
Does a Ford Mustang car look like a mustang horse????
Is not copying a form of flattery?
A manufacturer naming something they want to and then others finding fault because it does not exactly resemble the original is kind of a waste of time.
Does a Ford Mustang car look like a mustang horse????
I've been following this thread for some time now, one thing that i can add is this: I have both a replica T/C and a custom that was closely copied from Jim Bridgers hawken. I like both for different reasons..the T/C is lighter, weighing in at 8 1/2 lbs my custom is 12lbs. My T/C has a 28 inch barrel, the Jim Bridger is 34 inch. Both have a contoured cheek piece on the left hand side, the T/C is a walnut stock the custom is maple. The furniture is where the major Differences are to be found; the T/C is all brass, the custom is steel... after that there are tons of small differences. The main thing is this though; I wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen with either rifle at the range. I prefer both for different reasons or occasions.Chief Moonthunder said:
just my 2 cents..
Why buy a "Hawken" at all? Get the historic original the Rocky Mountain Rifle was inspired by -- the 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle, considered often to be the most beautiful military gun ever produced internationally.
Hey, it is closer to a Hawken than commercial "Hawkens" today 'cuz it's got a 39-1/2" barrel, is .54 caliber, and weighs 9-1/2 lbs...
:blah:
Hey, it is closer to a Hawken than commercial "Hawkens" today 'cuz it's got a 39-1/2" barrel, is .54 caliber, and weighs 9-1/2 lbs...
:blah:
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
Chief Moonthunder said:
I not only have a .54 cal flint now on the FedEx truck (stuck in the snow in Perrysville, oHIo), but its' the most profane of any of the rifles ever mistakenly misspoken of as "Hawken":
It's a Lyman
A Deerstalker
Lefthanded
and flint to boot
The snooty -tooty, opinionated "purists" can commence to wet themselves in their haste to tell me all about how Un- Hawken it is, especially being flint, but with that Gawd Awful (shudder) RUBBER buttpad, and whatever else they want to gripe about. I don't care - I got it mainly because the .54 flint is no longer in the Lyman catalog anymore, the price was right, I want one, and there are certain opinions that just don't matter to me ...
I'm guessing it's one of the newer models with the Gawd awful Williams glow-y fiber optic sights, but I'll either like them, or will go build my own sights to replace them.
Furthermore, if this particular rifle would run on Pyrodex, I'd use it - for the sole purpose of giving palpitations to all you'ns who object.
I have a pair of T/C Hawken's that I hunt with. Both like the same load,shoot well, but one has a prettier stock. Years back when I was both fitter, and better coordinated I took a tumble down a slope whilst hunting with a very nice long rifle. Packed about a foot of clay down the spout, scratched the stock some to. Took about two hours to unpack that clay, draw the load, and clean it. If I do that again, with the T/C which would seem more likely today, I will not be as upset. At the 8 1/2 pounds the weight feels good, whilst not being too heavy to lug through the bush. Even though I do prefer a heavy rifle.
Back a few years (67~68) I packed through I Corp a scoped Stoner modified M-14 with a bull barrel whilst most of the other guys had M-16s. It was a thing about getting up close and personal versus reaching out, and touching someone.
Back a few years (67~68) I packed through I Corp a scoped Stoner modified M-14 with a bull barrel whilst most of the other guys had M-16s. It was a thing about getting up close and personal versus reaching out, and touching someone.
OK, I'm smellin' what you're cookin' as long as it ain't grits. So, let's you and I develop...
...The Knee-Jerk Expert Reactionary's Approved Definition And Term For A Popularly, But Wholly Inappropriately, Referred-To-As "Hawken" Comercial Rifle.
Rifleman1776 has previosuly stated, minimally, a thread subject even MUST state we are talking about reproductions as he is upset by opening one only to find it is not about an original. So, there is the first point to contend with: apparently it must be clear it is a reproduction (which would also apply to the experts' "museum quality" guns having to be an exact copy of a specific Hawken rifle to cause such lamentations).
Agreed?
...The Knee-Jerk Expert Reactionary's Approved Definition And Term For A Popularly, But Wholly Inappropriately, Referred-To-As "Hawken" Comercial Rifle.
Rifleman1776 has previosuly stated, minimally, a thread subject even MUST state we are talking about reproductions as he is upset by opening one only to find it is not about an original. So, there is the first point to contend with: apparently it must be clear it is a reproduction (which would also apply to the experts' "museum quality" guns having to be an exact copy of a specific Hawken rifle to cause such lamentations).
Agreed?
Idaho Ron
58 Cal.
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I thought I was the only one that gave heart palpitations. :rotf: Your doing a pretty good job!
Here is a rifle that gives heart palpitation. This is my Hot Rod Hawken. It shoots a Paper Patched 409 gr RCBS 11mm rifle bullet. This rifle and my others has one moderator grasping his chest in agony.
This is the Hawken that we would all be discussing as a benchmark rifle if the Hawken boys would have thought of it. :rotf: :rotf:
Here is a rifle that gives heart palpitation. This is my Hot Rod Hawken. It shoots a Paper Patched 409 gr RCBS 11mm rifle bullet. This rifle and my others has one moderator grasping his chest in agony.
This is the Hawken that we would all be discussing as a benchmark rifle if the Hawken boys would have thought of it. :rotf: :rotf:
Now now, that is neither Hawken-like nor Hawkenesque but Hawken-ISH I would say as a working term of art. We are working out those details now as you can see above...
In the meantime, please do not hurt any of our experts as they truly are well-informed and I'm pretty sure well-intentioned.
In the meantime, please do not hurt any of our experts as they truly are well-informed and I'm pretty sure well-intentioned.
It seems like we can't do that... is it THAT hard to answer the OPs question without all the rest of the manure?Zonie said:Hopefully we can stick to mentioning the differences between the current "Hawkens" rifles and the original without criticizing the people posting their comments.
My friend, you may want to consider the reproachful advice of the sirens and take advantage of the good fortune you have here to call FedEx to return that monstrosity mid-transit before it ever insults your threshold. You must understand that's no Hawken!
Save yourself whilst you still may.
:wink:
Save yourself whilst you still may.
:wink:
Apparently.
While I'm writing I'll mention another difference between the modern "Hawkens" and the originals.
It isn't obvious when just looking at them even side by side but, the new ones often have been designed to simulate the modern rifles stocks drop.
The butt of the rifle including the location of the comb (the top) are much too high for good off hand shooting.
This works fine for modern scoped rifles but IMO, it leaves a lot to be desired for a muzzleloader.
This modern drop forces the iron sight shooter to scrunch their neck down to see the sights and often causes the comb (and cheekpiece) to slap their face when the gun fires.
Recognizing this, Pecatonica River designed their replacement stock with over 2 inches of additional drop when compared with a TC Hawken.
This results in a stock that brings the sights up to the shooters eye when the gun is mounted. No neck bending required.
I've had shooters who mounted my TC Hawken with a Pecatonica River stock say, "What did you do to this? It seems to line up with my eye without me even thinking about it."
The original Hawken rifles also had quite a bit of drop on their stocks because when they were made, this feature was common knowledge.
While I'm writing I'll mention another difference between the modern "Hawkens" and the originals.
It isn't obvious when just looking at them even side by side but, the new ones often have been designed to simulate the modern rifles stocks drop.
The butt of the rifle including the location of the comb (the top) are much too high for good off hand shooting.
This works fine for modern scoped rifles but IMO, it leaves a lot to be desired for a muzzleloader.
This modern drop forces the iron sight shooter to scrunch their neck down to see the sights and often causes the comb (and cheekpiece) to slap their face when the gun fires.
Recognizing this, Pecatonica River designed their replacement stock with over 2 inches of additional drop when compared with a TC Hawken.
This results in a stock that brings the sights up to the shooters eye when the gun is mounted. No neck bending required.
I've had shooters who mounted my TC Hawken with a Pecatonica River stock say, "What did you do to this? It seems to line up with my eye without me even thinking about it."
The original Hawken rifles also had quite a bit of drop on their stocks because when they were made, this feature was common knowledge.
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
Alden said:
Thank you for the "sage" advice.
No, go wring out your drawers :rotf:
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