Hawkin rifles

[Alden]

Zonie;
Do you have side-by-side pics by any chance?

Indirectly related, my most recent experience was with a Henry lever action and their "traditional" stock profile which completely precludes an actual cheek weld.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Rifleman1776 has previosuly stated, minimally, a thread subject even MUST state we are talking about reproductions as he is upset by opening one only to find it is not about an original.

It wasn't in this thread but the statement (compliment/criticizm?) is accurate. Discussions of originals is fun. Even though I own and use two TCs I believe the joy in this avocation is owning and using originals, which few of us can do, or having a nicely made reproduction that, at least, attempts to emulate the originals.
I should have known the discussion was about a factory made when "Hawken" was spelled "Hawkin".
Shown below is a reproduction Hawken made as exactly perfect as is humanly possible by a friend. Holding it is our own Squire Robin when he came across the pond several years back to ml hunt with some of us Yanks.

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[Alden]

Rifleman1776 has previosuly stated, minimally, a thread subject even MUST state we are talking about reproductions...

It wasn't in this thread but the statement (compliment/criticizm?) is accurate. Discussions of originals is fun. Even though I own and use two TCs I believe the joy in this avocation is owning and using originals, which few of us can do, or having a nicely made reproduction that, at least, attempts to emulate the originals.
I should have known the discussion was about a factory made when "Hawken" was spelled "Hawkin".
Shown below is a reproduction Hawken made as exactly perfect as is humanly possible by a friend. Holding it is our own Squire Robin...

This is a great post 1776, thanks -- see, I didn't forget you!

So, talking about, owning, and shooting original Hawkens is fun and members must be WARNED if the subject is about repros. Sorry you apparently lowered yourself to own and use a couple of joyless T/C's. It's a burden, I know...

I can't quite make it out because it it so high on that pedestal for someone with neither an original nor what some custom maker claims to be a true representation of the Hawken rifle, but the irony of your own stereotypical perspective is very clear and doesn't escape the observant reader. Tell me, which specific original Hawken rifle does Brave Sir Robin's "perfect as is humanly possible" apparently minimally acceptable-to-you reproduction gun mirror when NO TWO ORIGINALS WERE EXACTLY ALIKE!?

I do not dispute that it may be a generally better average representation of a Hawken Rocky Mountain Rifle, if that's what we're really talking about, but can you and your cadre not see the failure of your own argument to dismiss all Hawken-inspired commercial guns? That's a rhetorical question 1776 because I do not expect you, personally, to change how you feel vs. think...

 

[Zonie]

I don't think the picture fully shows the difference but in the lower photo the standard TC Hawken stock appears in the background with White Buffalo's Pecatonica River stock in the foreground.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/205226/post/393615/hl//fromsearch/1/#393615

His Pecatonica River stock is a #4 grade curly maple.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Tell me, which specific original Hawken rifle does Brave Sir Robin's "perfect as is humanly possible" apparently minimally acceptable-to-you reproduction gun mirror

The one it was copied from. :blah: Can't ye tell? :wink: Really, I don't know. Actually that may be an original Robin is holding. The builder also owns an original. He built one that the late John Baird authenticated as a previously unknown found original. The builder right the error but lost a friend in the process.

 

[RedFeather]

Saw where someone asked why T/C just didn't copy an original? To answer that I believe you must look at their market: hunters who heretofore used cartridge guns. T/C designed their gun to be handy carried afoot in the woods, taking into consideration it would likely be used where a .30-30 lever action fits right in (Eastern woodlands), built as strong as an original yet smaller due to improved metallurgy, using similar technology as went into their Contender pistols and Aristocrat rifles. This is much the same thing Bill Ruger did about the same time with his Number One single shot, styled along the lines of a Fharquarson (sp?) but not really a replica. If not for these affordable, high quality muzzle loaders (read that several cuts above a cheap Belgian import), the fledgling black powder scene might well have remained just that.

 

[54ball]

The original Hawken rifles also had quite a bit of drop on their stocks because when they were made, this feature was common knowledge.

So does the Lyman Great Plains as you know.

It may be my body type and I may not have been locked in like I should have but a .54 TC Renegade is the only rifle that has ever hurt me "with one shot".

The GPR with the same load held like a crescent butted rifle should be was no sweat. That Renegade held like a modern rifle , thumped me deep inside, I mean it hurt bad.

I've shot all kinds of rifles and guns from big bore levers, surplus WWI and II to snot slinging single barrels and that incident with that Renegade tops them all.

 

[Alden]

Now the charges against the T/C have come to "whahhh, the straighter stock on the mean make-believe Hawken hurt me bad deep inside Daddy"!

Really!?

:slap:

If they would only have had a greater drop at comb as well as put a semi or full pistol grip on it...

:shake:

:wink:

 

[Rifleman1776]

They are a business. They did what they did for their own reasons. And, the record demonstrates they did it successfully. The TC 'hawken' is taking it's place in the history of ml rifles in America. OK, I'll add..... Like it or not. :surrender:

 

[EN]

I remember reading an interview with Warren Center. He said he patterned the "Hawken" after a rifle he found in an attic in New England. He was told it was a woods deer rifle. In Ned Robert's book "The muzzleloading caplock rifle" There are quite a few pictures of guns that kinda sorta look like a T/C Hawken mostly made in New England. These were mainly for target shooting.

I also worked for a gunsmith for about 30 years in the sale end of things. People would come in and ask him to build both flint and percussion rifles. He made beautiful Tennesee type and half stock rifles. He was very talented but he knew nothing about the guns themselves and he had no interest in knowing. It was about the money.

At the end of the day I refer to a quote attributed to the Marine Corp: "This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is MINE....."

 

[LaBonte]

and in that same interview Mr Center noted that the use of the name Hawken was for advertising purposes ONLY, there was NO attempt to make it to look like any of the extant Hawken Bros made rifle........

as for Rifleman's not about being clear about which Hawken one is posting about is IMO a good and not just because we're some kind of prima donna but rather since there are several rifles both the originals and the so-called repros it would just plain make more sense to better define your request....

as for the differences between the original Hawken mtn rifle (not the local guns) and the modern repros both factory and custom made they are many and varied due to the originals all being more or less a custom item plus styles developed and changed from when Jake first started in St Louis in 1818, Sam in 1822, when they joined forces in 1825, and after Jake's death in 1849. Jake and Sam did not start out making their famed half-stocks - they were a development based on the experiences of those using their rifles, plus the influence of the English Sporting rifle of the same period that they basically "Americanized" with things such as the crescent butt plate, maple stocks, etc.


as for maker's not being able to make an exact copy of an original - see the late Tom "TK" Dawson's work of the current work of maker's such as Louis Palmer.
TK was famous in his day for making an exact replica (and I mean exact including dings, dents, etc.) of an original and then placing both on his table and challenged anyone to tell the difference.
As for hunting with original Hawkens - I know three gents that do...

one more note: while Jake and Sam's last name is correctly spelled Hawken, Hawkin shows up n a lot of the primary source material as written by others when referring to the Bros Hawken rifles and I'd be willing to bet no one had a problem realizing they meant Hawken....

Bottomline - if you really want to see the difference between the originals and the modern factory so-called repros than you really need to examine originals first hand and not just pictures - the differences are often subtle but they are there. And yes no two originals are exactly alike but they all share common points that mark them as a true Hawken and not a copy (which were even made in the day) - as has been noted by others like most anything else in this world "the devil is in the details"........

 

[FishDFly]

Now the charges against the T/C have come to "whahhh, the straighter stock on the mean make-believe Hawken hurt me bad deep inside Daddy"!

Really!?

:slap:

If they would only have had a greater drop at comb as well as put a semi or full pistol grip on it...

:shake:

:wink:

Rifles are made with different drops in the stock are as are folks made physically different....

Mowery from Olney, TX does not fit me. The Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken I have, required me to crawl up the stock to see through the sights, too much drop for me. The Lyman GPR is marginal for drop for me. None of these are crappy rifles, they just do not fit me physically.

The T/C Hawken with a 15/16" 45 barrel fits me like comfortable shoes, a joy to shoot in line matches.

Just cause a rifle does not fit you does not make it inferior or improper.

I have a high dollar sports car, joy to drive for a couple of hours, put it on the highway from Houston to Chicago and only stop for fuel and food and it will kill a person. It was not made to fit me physically.

 

[galamb]

I will add to some of the history here since I find it almost as interesting as the discussion itself.

Nicholas and Wolgang Hachen arrived from Switzerland and set up shop as gunsmiths in Hanover and Reading PA (respectively) in the 1750's.

Christian Hawken (Americanized the name, spelling it as it was pronounced) was the son of Nicholas. His father died when he was 2 years old. Christian grew up to be a noted gunsmith himself. He may have apprenticed under his uncle Wolfgang (who used the last name Haga) or another local gun builder.

Christian probably built rifles in Reading, PA, Greencastle, PA (where he lived briefly), North Carolina (where he lived for a year) and ultimately in Hagerstown, MD where he settled in 1784 and lived out his life rather successfully.

Jacob and Samuel were the 3rd and 4th sons (receptively) of Christian. They undoubtedly learned their gun making skills initially from their father.

In 1808 Jacob began working at Harper's Ferry.
In 1815 Sam started his own business in his father old shop in Hagerstown.

In 1816 Sam moved his business to Xenia, OH. He remained there until 1821. Following the death of his wife and then his father he returned briefly to Hagerstown.

In 1818 Jacob leaves Harper's ferry and in August of that year sets up shop in St. Louis with his then partner, James Lakenan.

In 1822 Sam moves to St. Louis.

In 1825 after Lakenan's death the brothers probably partnered up and remained that way until Jake's death in 1849.

Sam retired in 1855.

So what influenced their "plains" rifles - probably so many examples that it could never be fully determined.

Just their immediate family influence was Pa and MD styles, plus what they were individually influenced by examples at Harper's Ferry and Ohio - then the local styles prevalent in St. Louis, plus some rifles that came west from whatever source...

 

[EN]

I am glad someone else read that article. I guess what I really have is a half stock New England style deer rifle. I kinda like the ring of that.

 

[Alden]

"...and in that same interview Mr Center noted that the use of the name Hawken was for advertising purposes ONLY, there was NO attempt to make it to look like any of the extant Hawken Bros made rifle..."


Brilliant. I buy that. Well, except...

...why did Mr. Center use the name Hawken? Pulled it outta thin air!? Of course not! This is such a silly argument you guys maintain.

T/C, and many others, LOL, some even before T/C, built "Hawken"-themed guns, and of COURSE none of them looked like a specific Hawken, they resembled ALL of the Rocky Mountain Rifles to greater or lessor extents.

There is no such thing as THE "Hawken" rifle so many "experts" complain the commercial guns don't match.

:youcrazy:

 

[Rod Lassey]

Hmmm..... After years studying Rocky Mountain rifles, I'd have to say most of the "Hawken" repros definitely fall into the "lessor" catagory---most bear little, if any, passing resemblence to rifle made for the mountain trade.

As for the comment that there's no such thing as "THE Hawken rifle"? That's just bizarre---you really need to get to the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming, and take a look at the cases of Hawken rifles curated there. At the very least, invest in Charles Hanson's "The Plains Rifle" and "The Hawken Rifle, Its Place in History". A little research will go a long way.

Rod

 

[don hepler]

First there was the J&S Hawken, and then there was the Samual Hawken, then came the T/C Hawken. Now, when I started hunting, we had a two week season and the state decided to have a "Primitive Weapon" season. I wanted to extend my hunting season, so I (like thousands of other people) I bought, what was considered the best rifle, we could afford. That was a Thompson Center Hawken. It wasn't a J&S Hawken, and it wasn"t a Samual Hawken. It was a T/C Hawken. If it wasn't for the T/C Hawken, I would have never heard of the other two. In fact, I probably wouldn't be shooting black powder rifles, at all. I hope the "Native Americans aren't upset about my "Seneca" or "Cherokee". Warren Center, may could have chosen a different name, but never a better one.

 

[Rod Lassey]

Nothing wrong with that---my first BP rifle was a CVA Frontier rifle. Still have it, it'll be the one my kids learn on. I do realize, however, that it bears little resemblence to any historical rifle. Still accurate and fun to shoot, though.

Rod

 

[Alden]

Rod, you haven't read or have failed to understand the thread. A knee jerk reaction against commercial Hawkens? I can't believe it!

If any of the relatively minor details enumerated earlier are those that make the difference between an original Hawken and the commercial ones today then those same differences would have to be applied amongst Hawkens' themselves. Fair enough? The bouncing ball continues Rod...

As you are so informed, have studied text and originals, you'll recognize that no two Hawkens are exactly alike. Ipso Facto...

There is no, single, "The Hawken rifle" to not be an exact copy of. Understand!?

The sniping against people and their commercial Hawkens (by and large by people who do not own an original nor probably even a generic custom copy) is warped internet parroting, vaguely similar to those against the Pedersoli Trade Gun and Brown Bess.

It's all like an Abbot and Costello routine: "Slowly I turned, step by step..." when someone mentions a T/C, CVA, GPR or other "Hawken." Some people must think they appear to have graduated to a higher plane of knowledge or skill or seniority or something it seems when they act out with such negative attitude.

 

[dave524]

Hawken is no different, to the unknowing all lever action cowboy rifles were Winchesters and all six shooters of that era were Colts. Got a half stock caplock rifle gotta be a Hawken :idunno: