Help a newbie with misfirng caps

[Semper_Smokey]

Hi all,

Finally - FINALLY - got my new (to me) TC Hawken up and running and got to the range the other day. What a blast (hehe)!!!

Still, as fun as it was, 2 issues I ran into:

1) In ~20 shots, the caps only went off on the first try maybe twice. At first I thought the new replacement nipple was off, so I changed back to the original. But it became like clockwork: load up, settle in for the shot, pull the trigger and click - nothing. Then reset the hammer, pull the trigger again and - BOOM! Glorious smoke. Always worked on the second go, never on the first.

I was using Winchester #11 percusion caps from a brand new order. As I mentioned, I tried both the original and a replacement TC Hawken nipple. I also tried to help 'seat' the cap by de-cocking the hammer on top of the cap and pushing on it a bit.

What am I dorking up?

2) I hesitate to mention this... but is there some way to avoid absoluting mashing up your hand while starting PRBs? I don't want to complain too much, but when I woke up this morning, my little finger was swollen and all black and blue where the ... stuff ... had drained from my palm down into my finger.

I tried to follow Dutch's system as closely as possible. I had intended to experiement with 2 ball diameters and 2 patch thicknesses (0.490 and 0.495 hand cast balls from TOTW, 0.01 cotton strips and 0.018 pillow ticking also TOTW, treated with 7:1 Water:Ballistol and let dry, cut at the muzzle)... but the thinnest combination was still bloody damned hard to start. I only tried the 0.495 balls twice and it took several minutes of pounding on the ball starter to get it into the muzzle. Thought I was going to break my hand


Otherwise, an amazing day. I was surprised I could easily match at 50 yds the usual ~2" group I had been getting with my inline on the FIRST DAY of shooting. Definitely hooked and want to get over these two hiccups so I can keep improving!

And if helpful, other details of my setup/routine:
- 0.50 cal TC Hawken (used)
- Winchester #11 caps
- 80 grains FFG Goex (was also shocked, after all I've heard about 'mule kicks,' that this felt like being tickled with a feather, my inline with its fancy recoil pad is much more, and my M1903 Springfield is a differnt world entirely)
- Ended up only really using 0.490 hand cast balls + 0.010 cotton strips, cut at the barrel, prepped with 7:1 Ballistol/water
- Swabbed between each shot with a cotton patch dampened with Dutch's Moose milk (22:1:1 water:Ballistolinesol) and then a dry one... Maybe I should drop the last one, but my patches seem really thin so thought an extra swab would help. Also occasionally ran a nipple pick down the nipple, though never had any hint of an ignition problem.
- Target at 50yds


And while we're sharing... I got to chatting with my neighbor and managed my first dry ball! I knew something was wrong when I ran the ramrod home and my loading mark disappeared into the barrel. Still, as Dutch recommended, I pretended nothing at all was the matter, took off the nipple and shoved in a bit of powder, loaded up and popped the little bugger right out - no one the wiser!

 

[Grenadier1758]

When the cap goes off on the second strike, it is often the fault of the nipple being too large for the cap and the first strike sets the cap firmly on the nipple. Since you are using a new replacement nipple, the nipple should be good. Perhaps the Winchester caps are the problem and the foil is too robust. If you can find them, try the Remington #11 caps. These are highly regarded along with the RWS caps. I have been using CCI caps with good results, but my lock uses a pretty strong mainspring.

Remove your lock and see if there is a lot of grease that may be slowing the hammer. Clean well and lubricate with a light coating of fresh grease. It is also possible that the Winchester caps will work if you reduce the diameter of your nipple. It should only take a few strokes with a file to reduce the diameter enough to fully seat your caps and the nipple will still be able to grip Remington toe CCI caps.

You will need thicker patching. Since you are hurting your hand while loading, I am assuming that you are using a short starter. I have a light mallet, Plastic head hammers can be found at Harbor Freight that do a nice job to start a tight ball and patch combination. One school of loading recommends using a mallet and others recommend using a smaller ball so that the ball can be started by your thumb pressure. Best accuracy requires a tight fitting ball and patch. Quite a few of the members of my club have some form of starting mallet to start the ball. Once started, the ball can be loaded with the ramrod. Do get a working rod, preferably of brass or steel to use at the range for loading and for cleaning.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Try Remington #10 caps. You might need to turn down the sides of the nipple with sandpaper to give less taper. You more or less want the cap to bottom out on the nipple yet not be loose on it.

For your rifle, you could try a thicker patch. Also, look into radiusing the muzzle. This is where you break the edge of the sharp transition from the muzzle into the rifling grooves. Will let you start and load a tighter combo. You’d probably be able to use .495 balls and .015” patching like ticking.

 

[Carbon 6]

If your lock bolt is too tight it can draw the lock into the mortise too far causing it to drag on wood slowing it down. You may also have a weak mainspring.

I would start by switching to CCI caps. if is still misfires you have a nipple or lock problem.

 

[longcruise]

It's definitely a cap fit issue. Could be the nipple is too large or the win caps are too small. When a nipple has had a lot of use it tends to flare a bit and is too wide to get the cap all the way on.

Here's a solution at least for the use of the Win caps. Chuck the nipple threads into a drill ( not tight enough to damage them) and spin it with light contact with a fine file. Have some of the win caps handy and test fit until the caps slide easily onto the nipple. That will take care of the problem at least for the moment.

If you have only a few of the win caps on hand, get some cci or rem caps. If they don't fit, go ahead and modify the nipple. At that point it's probably a good idea to get a new nipple.

Also check all the other things mentioned in this thread.

 

[Britsmoothy]

There is no way on God's earth I would load a patch and ball combo that was so difficult and painful. It's absolutely not neccasary!
Powder, thin card, grease, patch and ball all started with the thumb.

 

[Bad Karma]

If I’m hunting, my loads are significantly easier to load than the target loads for the same rifle. You’re not likely to attain, nor need, 1 MOA accuracy from a looser fitting ball and patch but you shouldn’t be bruising your hand loading either.

 

[Pete G]

Different brand caps are different sizes, even if the same #.

 

[Semper_Smokey]

When the cap goes off on the second strike, it is often the fault of the nipple being too large for the cap and the first strike sets the cap firmly on the nipple. Since you are using a new replacement nipple, the nipple should be good. Perhaps the Winchester caps are the problem and the foil is too robust. If you can find them, try the Remington #11 caps. These are highly regarded along with the RWS caps. I have been using CCI caps with good results, but my lock uses a pretty strong mainspring.

Remove your lock and see if there is a lot of grease that may be slowing the hammer. Clean well and lubricate with a light coating of fresh grease. It is also possible that the Winchester caps will work if you reduce the diameter of your nipple. It should only take a few strokes with a file to reduce the diameter enough to fully seat your caps and the nipple will still be able to grip Remington toe CCI caps.

You will need thicker patching. Since you are hurting your hand while loading, I am assuming that you are using a short starter. I have a light mallet, Plastic head hammers can be found at Harbor Freight that do a nice job to start a tight ball and patch combination. One school of loading recommends using a mallet and others recommend using a smaller ball so that the ball can be started by your thumb pressure. Best accuracy requires a tight fitting ball and patch. Quite a few of the members of my club have some form of starting mallet to start the ball. Once started, the ball can be loaded with the ramrod. Do get a working rod, preferably of brass or steel to use at the range for loading and for cleaning.

Thanks for the info! I'll have a mess around with fitting the caps on the two nipples I have and have a go at filing one of them. A bit frustrating that there seems to be literally zero brick and mortar stores that carry these locally, so I got a rather large shipment of these caps to make the HAZMAT fee less painful.

Couple follow ups:
1) What kind of grease should I use on the lock?
2) What made you suggest thicker patching? Just curious if that was based on my group or if it's just well known that 0.490 + 0.010 isn't enough! I did notice that after the pain and suffering of starting, it was easy to give one good shove with the ramrod and seat it all in one stroke (and yup, I got a brass rod after being warned earlier about relying on the wooden ones).
3) Any specifics on the plastic head hammer? There's quite a few on the site! Assuming something like this, but I've also seen some reenactors with these smaller wooden mallet thingies.

 

[Bad Karma]

Thanks for the info! I'll have a mess around with fitting the caps on the two nipples I have and have a go at filing one of them. A bit frustrating that there seems to be literally zero brick and mortar stores that carry these locally, so I got a rather large shipment of these caps to make the HAZMAT fee less painful.

Couple follow ups:
1) What kind of grease should I use on the lock?
2) What made you suggest thicker patching? Just curious if that was based on my group or if it's just well known that 0.490 + 0.010 isn't enough! I did notice that after the pain and suffering of starting, it was easy to give one good shove with the ramrod and seat it all in one stroke (and yup, I got a brass rod after being warned earlier about relying on the wooden ones).
3) Any specifics on the plastic head hammer? There's quite a few on the site! Assuming something like this, but I've also seen some reenactors with these smaller wooden mallet thingies.

I use white lithium grease on locks and revolver internals.

Since you have so many caps you’re kind of stuck with fitting the nipple to the cap. Not a bad thing, take your time with it and you’ll be fine.

i usually start with .015 patches but if they’re too tight, .010 are fine too. Your rifle is a law unto itself, there are general guidelines to follow but experiments and time at the range will help you to learn the gun.

if you use a mallet a small wooden one would be my choice.

 

[longcruise]

If you are bruising your hand, then thicker patches are going to exacerbate the problem. OTOH, a 490 ball and a .10 patch should not be a too tight fit in a TC Hawken.

Are you measuring patch thickness or is that what they are labeled as?

 

[Semper_Smokey]

If you are bruising your hand, then thicker patches are going to exacerbate the problem. OTOH, a 490 ball and a .10 patch should not be a too tight fit in a TC Hawken.

Are you measuring patch thickness or is that what they are labeled as?

Just their labeling - though wanted to try a thicker patch, as once started, they're quite easy to ram home. Just got to get them in!

 

[Grenadier1758]

Ah, yes, back the lock screw 1/2 turn. On a muzeloader, most threaded fasteners only need to be tightened to snug.

White lithium grease or RIG, lightly applied would be my choice to grease the lock internals.

 

[hanshi]

Absolutely need to smooth that muzzle crown with sandpaper and your thumb. That will allow an easier entry of the prb into the bore. It will still require a short starter but will not require the kind of force that is bruising your hands. I'd also recommend using a wet patch - mink oil, Hoppes BP Lube or something similar. In the .50 I use a .490" ball, .023" canvas patch lubed with one of the two mentioned above. It's usually TOW mink oil for the woods and Hoppes for the range. No wiping needed.

 

[EC121]

If you are using a round short shorter, Cut a flat spot on the side you are hitting. It will help with the bruising until you can polish the muzzle. I use a dowel with some wet or dry paper wrapped around it to polish the muzzle. I have also used a chainsaw file or an oval shaped needle file to break the edge of the lands and grooves before thumb polishing. Doesn't take a lot. You just want to round the sharp edge at the muzzle.
I bought some Cratex wheels last week. I may try them next.
I also tried some of that non-hardening coconut oil this week. Just enough to oil the patch. Not dripping. It is amazing how clean it shoots and how easy the fouling came out. Can't speak for the accuracy, because I just pulled a load out of the air to get to 50yd. minute of sow accuracy.

 

[mooman76]

You might also want to measure them hand cast balls. Just because they say they are.490 does not mean they are. I shot mine for years thinking they were because I didn't have anything to measure them with. Come to find out they were .493 and all my others ran a little bigger. I made my own starter and it is not round like a ball. More round and a little flatter on the top kinda like a knob. Its also a little larger than some so it doesn't hurt as much as the smaller rounder ones.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Are the balls soft lead? A ball made of lead alloy will be hard and difficult to load.

 

[James Edmisson]

Concerning your misfires, I suggest that you inspect/ clean the inner cup of the hammer that strikes the primer. This area is often overlooked when cleaning a side-lock muzzleloader. You wont believe the amount of soot that can build up in this area that can lead to pitting/rust and perhaps a lighter hammer strike. I always remove the hammer and thoroughly clean and oil this area after a range session.

 

[SDSmlf]

Sounds like you are well on the way. 20 shoots. 2” group at 50 yards. On day one. Good job.

You are getting a lot of good advice, but I would suggest you slow down and tackle your issues one at a time, changing one thing at a time. Start changing multiple things at the same time and you won’t know why or how things got better or worse.

The misfiring caps are most likely a cap to nipple fit thing. Follow the suggestions mentioned above to fit one nipple (I would start with the ‘original’ nipple) to the caps you have. You can test if they pop as they should with an EMPTY (NO POWDER) gun just about anywhere, as you tweak the fit.

If you are not using a short starter, make or buy one. That will simplify getting the ball started. Are you using a range rod with a handle and bore protector to load? If not, a palm saver will help until you get one. Something as simple as a shallow hole in your short starter to allow you to put it over your ramrod to protect your hand while you load works. What you are describing doesn’t sound like a sharpe bore crown if you are not tearing patches, and with the accuracy you are getting, unlikely. But a good polishing of the bore crown with 400-600 wet paper under your thumb won’t hurt and may ease the amount of effort to get your ball started.

When you straighten out your two originally stated issues you will be way ahead on the learning curve. Go slow and try one thing at a time with a reason. You want to avoid going backwards. Change patch material, lube and round ball size at the same time, and then find your 50 yard group opens up, hard to figure out why.

Just another opinion.

 

[James Edmisson]

You are getting a lot of good advice, but I would suggest you slow down and tackle your issues one at a time, changing one thing at a time. Start changing multiple things at the same time and you won’t know why or how things got better or worse.

That's sage advise right there!