Help - Looking for Flintlock tang screw help or a gunsmith

[m4fun]

So I picked up a "used" Pedersoli "Brown Bess" carbine at a wonderful price. Assured a beautiful patina but the bore was bright (and it is). Sparks well, etc, etc. Just an odd looking phillips head screw for the tang screw...easily replaced with more period specific flat head.

My normal way of taking care of a newly acquired "used" rifle is completely tear it down, treat, lube, polish and give it an overall checkup/tuneup. Outside of a beautiful bore and good working lock I want to remove the barrel (who knows the condition on the underside). Well that phillips head tang screw is really what appears to be the original tang screw and appears to be buggered up enough that there is a perpendicular cut making it look like a phillips. This does not work and essentially is pretty seriously in there and not enough metal to grab and perhaps even frozen in there...

Before I drill out the head to drop the trigger assembly out and remove it from there, I thought I would ask this esteemed group for thoughts, advice and even who to go to for help.

Thanks very much,

Brian

 

[wiscoaster]

Wow, that's really one boogered tang. I think maybe you'll need to enlarge the hole to eliminate the cuts and fabricate an entirely new tang screw with a larger head. Will be watching thread to see what the experts have to suggest.

I had to drill out and machine a new tang screw and screw hole once due to frozen solid tang screw, but it was in an "unmentionable" milsurp, so can't detail it here. That restored the gun to functional, but ruined it as an "collectible".

 

[1950DAVE]

Looks like somebody has dremeled a Philips screw. If it were mine I would first try something like this to remove the old screw.

 

[1950DAVE]

Impact driver from HF Tools

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Yes, someone has PEENED the head of the bolt, which engineering-wise means "displacement of metal". So beside removing the offending bolt, however you do it, you'l also need to expand that countersink and use a larger-head oval head bolt.

I think your best bet is to drill through the buggered head so the head cap hopefully falls off without too much persuasion. FWIW, if/as needed, the best penetrating oil one can use is a DIY homemade mix of 50% acetone and 50% automatic transmission fluid (ATF).

“Machinist Workshop Magazine” did a test on penetrating oils. Using nuts and bolts that they 'scientifically rusted’ to a uniform degree by soaking in salt water, they then tested the break-out torque required to loosen the nuts. They treated the nuts with a variety of penetrants and measured the torque required to loosen them. This is what they came up with:

Nothing: 516 lbs
WD-40: 238 lbs
PB Blaster: 214 lbs
Liquid Wrench: 127 lbs
Kano Kroil: 106 lbs
(ATF)/Acetone mix (50/50 mix): 50 lbs

 

[ZUG]

Good information there Flint62Smoothie.

The impact driver will do the job along with the penetrating oil IF you can get the screwdriver bit to fit the slot well and keep the bit in there when hitting the driver. You can also use a drill press to put downward pressure on the bit while you manually turn the chuck or pully. I like the impact driver method myself.

 

[wiscoaster]

...
PB Blaster: 214 lbs
Liquid Wrench: 127 lbs
...

I was surprised to see this much difference between those two.

 

[rafterob]

Impact driver or easy out. I would go straight to the easy out. You will be able to buy a correct size tang bolt from Track of the Wolf.

 

[deerstalkert]

looks like someone cut new slots with a graver, crossing into the tang. the thing should come out with some penetrating oil and that impact driver. go gentle the first few hits and it should start backing out.

 

[SDSmlf]

If you can get to the screw threads where the screw comes through the trigger plate, try the penetrating oil (and yes PB Blaster is about worthless for loosening threads, but has good advertising if that’s what you like). The impact driver should work, and possibly not damage the ‘cross slotted’ screw head more than it already is. You could also try turning the screw with a small sharp chisel or screwdriver, tapping against one of the slots, but that screw head will likely not be as ‘pretty’ when you are done. An easyout lined up in a vertical mill or drill press will definitely work.

 

[1950DAVE]

Once you drill for an easy out there is no turning back, no other options I can think of. What size screw and what size easy out? How much bite on a difficult screw?

 

[1950DAVE]

If the impact failed, before I drilled a hole in it I would think of welding a small nut to that screw head with a mig. I have done that but not on a muzzleloader and not next to wood. I would set up a trial on scrap first.

 

[2 shots]

there are screw extractors out there that are a counter sunk drill bit on one end , and a counter sunk reverse thread on the other. looks like it would work nicely in the center or your screwed up screw. i have used them many times with good success.

 

[ZUG]

Small easy-outs are useless on small screws unless you are VERY skilled in their use. When you break it off in the screw and you will then you are in deep yogurt! Do as I said and buy the impact driver from Harbor Freight (or someplace else if you choose) and use it. It will come in handy for the next time something else happens with a stuck screw or bolt.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have often shown impact drivers to do the extraction of relatively small threaded fasteners. This one offered on Amazon has it all, slotted screwdrivers, Phillips tips and screw extractors.

https://www.amazon.com/ARES-10025-3...31e&pd_rd_i=B09D37KHJ1&th=1&tag=forumyield-20

You can also modify a 3/16" tip on a 1/4" hex drive to make an impact bit for removing rusted in place or over torqued nipples.

@Roadkill, one of the best tools that I know of is the small impact tool that uses the 1/4" hex drive bits. This has the advantage of applying the impact vibration while making a small turn at the same time.

I have one similar to the one I have linked below. You will have to get a slotted screwdriver bit and grind the tip to properly fit the slot in the screw. This works just as @Jappo instructs in his post above. Sure, using the plastic handled screwdriver and tapping while turning will do almost the same thing. Of course, several liberal applications of the penetrating oil will help as well. Give the penetrating oil some time to work. A mix of 50% acetone and 50% Automatic Transmission Fluid is one of the best penetrating solutions I know of.

https://www.amazon.com/ARES-10025-3...6b8-982c-6c916a75431e&pd_rd_i=B09D37KHJ1&th=1

You can see the modified nut driver in the picture shown in the quote below.

Sadly, this hex drive impact tool is no longer available at Harbor Freight. A similar tool can be found on Amazon but it takes some searching. The tip for the nipple wrench was made from a 5 mm nut driver. It worked when I removed the nipples from one of those over torqued Italian percussion revolvers. Two dowels in the vise to set the cylinder in place. Only took a few taps with the impact tool to loosen the nipples.

View attachment 236644
Part of the "Don't Force It, Get a Bigger Hammer" series of tools.

 

[planefixer da50]

put some kroil penatrating oil on the threads of trigger plate. with buttstok in vice padded. use some fine grade of valve grinding compound. NAPA has 4clover, put some on a good common blade screwdriver blade, with lots of down pressure the driver slowly. can also a soldering iron on trigger plate to heat it with kroil. good luck. mike

 

[LonestarShootR]

I have removed hundreds of broken screws, bolts , studs, shafts, pins etc. in my life. Without more evasive measures I agree with planefixer above that heating the trigger guard around the screw and applying Kroil, penetrate of you choice or even wax will help wick it into the threads. You can then possibly use a center punch or correct size punch to deliver an impact directly to the end of the screw. Heat can be very very effective if you can apply it to the right area.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have removed hundreds of broken screws, bolts , studs, shafts, pins etc. in my life. Without more evasive measures I agree with planefixer above that heating the trigger guard around the screw and applying Kroil, penetrate of you choice or even wax will help wick it into the threads. You can then possibly use a center punch or correct size punch to deliver an impact directly to the end of the screw. Heat can be very very effective if you can apply it to the right area.

Yes if you can get a small enough flame on the screw as the trigger plate on the Bess is not very wide.
HOWEVER, I would be worried that it wasn't a dremel, but some ham-fisted DIY man using a metal chisel, and so has effectively "staked" that tang screw in place on the tang. I think it better to drill out that screw head, then try to extract it and if not break the head off the shaft. Remove the barrel, then using a punch tap the trigger plate out by apply a mallet and punch to the remaining bit of tang screw, and go from there.

LD

 

[cebusey]

I recently restored an Pattern 1853 Enfield 3 band Musket that was in very bad condition. The tang screw had corroded and swollen in the stock and there was no budging it. Fortunately I could access the middle portion of the tang screw from the lock mortise and was able to use a fine diamond tip dremel bit to carefully cut the tang screw in half through the lock mortise. This allowed me to remove the barrel and the trigger assembly. The stub of the tang screw in the lock assembly came out easily with heat and penetrating oil. The top end of the tang screw came out easily as well.
By the way, doesn't the Bess use a trigger pinned in the stock rather than an actual trigger assembly like an Enfield? I do not know much about the Bess or how the reproductions are being done but have found that pre pattern 1853 British percussion muskets have had the trigger pinned in the stock rather than using a trigger assembly.

Best of luck to you

 

[m4fun]

Thanks everyone - great help here. There is really not enough metal there to use an impact driver...unless in tandem a screw remover. What inst apparent from the pictures is that the screw head is actually somewhat recessed.

Got excited and checked the lock mortise but no access to the tang screw there. The trigger guard does appear to be pinned but I dont believe the trigger is section is. That will be tonight's task.

The trigger section is really limited and wood would get heated - I will check with my son if he has a small butane "hobby" torch .

I think either trying a screw remover or drilling out the head might be the only path forward if the heat portion fails and that would be with a screw remover. I just ordered a new tang screw from VTI - its back-ordered so I might just wait and actually try that acetone/ATV mixture on the bottom of the trigger/tang screw-end to get that rolling.

Learn something almost every time I am on this forum!