Help .. TC buttstock heel too high!

[roundball]

I've always sought out, bought, and refinished very old TC Hawken stocks because back in the 70's and early 80's, they had longer LOP's in the 14.5" & 14.75" range, which automatically gives more drop which is good...but anything more modern than that is in the 13 &7/8's to 14" range which are too short and lack drop.

I've got a gorgeous above average Hawken stock that happens to only be 14"...might experiment with bending it to see if this works, and if I might then be able to use it more comfortably.

I wouldn't think it would take very much movement in the wrist to throw the heel down another inch.

And from a planning point of view, is this:

One heat lamp?
Five heat lamps?
10-15mins?
2 hours?
etc, etc

Thanks

 

[jerrywh]

two heat lamps should do it. The whole process from start to finish shouldn't take over two hours.
It needs to cool real good afterwrd.Probably ought to let it cool over night.

 

[davy]

Hey J. Are the two lamps on each side ... or above and below the bend area? I have read somewhere you should apply heat directly to the bend area .. in this case below and above the intended bend such as in the inside of the bend and outside? Do you remember where these gunsmiths placed the lamps in regard to the position of the bend?

And also once bent to the desired position ... was the wood held in that postion to cool with some type of clamping overnite?

Another point .. what metal work if any was removed to begin the bend .. almost certainly you would have to remove the trigger guard and trigger assembly, as well of, in this case at least one of the tang screws, otherwise these metal parts would support the rigidness of the wood and hinder the bending area and thus... thwart the bend process ... implies having to adjust and bend metal parts slightly afterwards .. to fit properly

Davy

 

[jerrywh]

I just put one lamp on each side. you have to hold the stock in the desired position until it cools. If your just giving it more drop then you just put some support under the barrel or butt stock while it cools. I guess I would take out the trigger guard, the tang screw and the trigger plate. Take care not to heat the stock too far forward or the lock will not fit when you are done. Then you might have to bend it back. If you want to add or take out some cast off you will need to make a fixture to put the gun in so you can regulate the configuration. My buddy Steve Nelson- renowned custom gun maker of modern guns- has a wooden box he puts his guns in to bend .It has large screws in the sides and stuff so that he can bend them in any configuration.
Another way to do it is to heat the linseed oil in a container on a hot plate and then pour it over the part you want to bend but then you need to have a way to recapture the oil and the pouring process has to go on for about 20 minutes.
You can get as sophisticated as you want. USE you imagination. When I did re curve bows I just stuck the ends in a pot of hot oil on the kitchen stove .Then held them like I wanted until they cooled.
If you use method of pouring the oil over the stock you still need to wrap the part in rags that you will bend.

 

[davy]

Well guys I blew it! I tried it ”¦ and due probably to my own over zealousness in applying the heat over a 5 hour process .. it failed! :cursing:

I have debated on putting this on the thread but those interested in this process should be fore-warned it is tricky (at least for me) at best. And I should note here ”¦ this should NOT be an indication of indictment on those who so generously gave me advice on this subject .. I do appreciate your input amigos!

The end result was not only did I get a total bend of only less than 3/8 of an inch in 5 hours of hot work, but ... more importantly I ended up with a burned stock! :nono: Now ”¦ having said that, I take full responsibility for it. After about 3 hours of watching nothing happening, no stock movement, I slightly turned up the heat and voila! ... 2 hours later ( and a little smoke) ... end result ... a burned wrist area on stock. Needless to say I was an unhappy customer!

As a result I scraped and sanded that bugger and ended up with a still noticable dark spot on the stock, and a much thinner messed up wrist on the TC Renegade! Now having said this ”¦ I was warned that if it smoked ”¦ it was burning .. duhhh !!! but frankly there was no movement seen whatsoever of the stock without the additional heat! :cursing: So I guess I missed that boat .. bigtime! I fully take the blame for that! :hmm:

I had planned on getting a new stock for it before all this business started, now I have little choice. I paid my money and took my chances ... but I hate that I made a mess of the standard stock, live and learn I guess. I am sure that the advice was given on this in good conscience, and I do appreciate it, but those considering this process must be told that it carries an element of risk (at least for me and my limited skills anyway!)!

Here are some pictures of my mini holocaust! Be afraid ... be very afraid! I accept my own guilt here, and probably it was due to mine own error filled ways ”¦ but ”¦ I probably would not do this at home kiddoes, at least not again! Not on a fancy, nice piece of wood! So just understand that there is more than an element of risk here! Just my two cents! :nono:

 

[roundball]

Davy, I appreciate your post...I hemmed and hawed for a couple days over whether to try it or not and finally decided to pass...too risky with my limited skills in this area.

The Hawken stock I was interested in doing is actually a presentation grade stock...would rather shoot it the way it is, than to have more drop on a stock that I probably would have boogered up worse than yours.

Sorry you had that experience man...

 

[mikelange]

Davy, I am looking as I write this at Track Of The Wolf's catalog #15, page 226, where they list both fullstocks and halfstocks for the T/C Hawken. The plain maple halfstock, pre-inletted for pretty much everything except the buttplate and triggerguard, is listed at under $100.00. This stock is for a 15/16" barrel, but you're talking 1/32" of wood to be removed from the walls of the barrel channel, to get your 1" Renegade barrel to fit. The stock allows for up to a 14 1/2" pull with up to 3" drop. FYI

 

[davy]

Well ... I knew others were considering the process .. so I decided to express my conclusions .. hoping to save others from my errors & mistakes!

I am sure the process does work in more qualified hands than mine ... these were my own foulups I am sure, and I take full responsibility for them.

But there IS a qualified possibility of messing it up as I did. I felt that fact was important enuff to bring out, to inform others and let them weigh the consequences!

I sincerely appreciate the wonderful help and information I recieve on this site ... I have learned a great deal here .. hope and expect to learn a great deal more! All the mistakes I make with it are all mine!

Now .. the drop on my TC Renegade stock was about 2 inches .. the Pecatonica stock is about 3 inch drop .. (and I believe TOW gets their wood from Pec) I THINK I am looking for more drop than that... I was told a better drop is in the neighborhood of 3 1/2 to 4 inchs .. I dunno ... leads me to the idear that I may well go to a stock blank and cut it from scratch! I am currently eyeballing my options!

Thanx guys for the input and comments! I do hope others can learn from my mistakes! :hmm:

Davy

 

[Zonie]

Davy: When your considering stocks with a lot of drop, just keep in mind that the more drop the stock has, the more it will rotate upward when it's fired.
If your shooting light to moderate loads with roundballs in a small bore gun, it isn't very noticable but if your shooting a .50 or larger with a near max hunting load (espicially with conicals) the upward rotation of the stock can give your cheek a good hard hit right under the cheekbone.

Years ago, I found that adding a lot of lead to the butt of a stock (in holes drilled under the buttplate) can have the same effect.

 

[davy]

Good point Zonie, I am just looking for a comfortable level fit for siting the rifle .. with my skinny face :rotf: ... I hate to smash my face to the stock to site the rifle ...

I intend to try a number of heights before settling on a determined one. I promise you one thing, having shot some fairly heavy powered modern rifles in my time ... I am not into punishment ... but only want a reasonable compromise! :grin:

Davy

 

[roundball]

"...This stock is for a 15/16" barrel, but you're talking 1/32" of wood to be removed from the walls of the barrel channel, to get your 1" Renegade barrel to fit..."

I think there's more to it than that...the tang for the hooked breech has to be the larger 1" tang, and that means a larger inletting operationg where the tang face seats down in, etc.

TC Hawkens are actually built on two different size stocks altogether.

The regular dimension stock is for the the .45/.50cals with 15/16" barrels;

The larger dimension stock is for the .54/.58cals with 1" barrels.....and the stock is larger and stronger overall, not just the barrel bed.

 

[ewan]

davy. congrats for the attempt - i'm sure your disappointed but you had a try. :applause:

i wouldn't be brave enough. i am intrigued tho...
it looks like too much heat too close to the wood. my experience is steam bending thin strips for kayaks, the odd keel beam and 2-3 times i have had a hand in doing large wooden sail boat ribs.

i look at the process in this way - if you think of the wood as a bunch of straws held together by a substance. we are trying to get the heat through the piece so that the wood(straw bits)are not structurally affected by the heat just the bits surrounding these "straws".

when the surrounds are relaxed the "straw" fibres can be moved (repositioned) within it- i think of it as a sliding around. at this point the wood is evenly heated through to the required temp. there are observation about how the wood is breaking (tearing bits, collapsing bits) but these are too difficult to describe.

if your getting a new stock
why not try try it again - i would suggest getting the heat deeper in and less extreme on the exterior - perhaps a much thicker wrapping over a wider area? vary the lamps closeness (in then out)

any way :bow: for the attempt

 

[davy]

Thanx for the reply guys .. yes I agree too much heat too close ... I felt even as I reached the end of this processand found the damage, that a bigger wrap may have done a better job ... I did keep the wrap soaked in linseed oil.

The problem was you could not unwrap the stuff, it was obviously too hot to handle, short of starting the process all over again. I found that by very small increments (of certainly less than an inch movement) the heat range either became too intense or not hot enuff! :hmm:

Like I said I spent over 5 hrs (closer to six)in this attempt! I think the real problem arises in not being able to effectively gauge the heat temperature, and effect on the wood without unwrapping .. which of course kills the process.

A real catch22 for me anyway. I would try it again if on a lesser piece of wood .. but not on an expensive one by any means .. not at least until I could get some way of guarantee that it would not become charcoal! :cursing:

Regardless of getting another stock .. I regret that I damaged this stock I did have, it deserved better!

 

[Zonie]

Davy: Sorry to hear/see what happened to your stock.
I do thank you for the effort and more importantly, for posting the results.
I was thinking of trying this on a few of my Penn rifles but now, I am having real doubts about getting any of my guns involved in the process.(charring and inlays don't go together IMO).

It will be interesting to hear what Jerry Huddleston has to say about your misfortune.

 

[davy]

Well I thought about the disappointing results .. but talked it over with John Hinnant, and we both felt that it was important to see how NOT to do it! :cursing:

I am still sure its probably due to some error on my part ... but it does bother me that there is so little room for error here in the process, and of course ruining the stock the way I did, would make me a little gunshy about doing it again! I would have had a plain old heartattack iffin it had been on a high dollar piece of wood! :nono:

Yes I will be interested in what Jerry has to say, mebee he can shed some light on my disappointing results ... there is one thing for sure .. DO NOT LET IT SMOKE, THAT IS NOT STEAM!! IT IS BURNING FER REAL!! as Mr. Huddleston has already told us!

Davy

 

[ewan]

perhaps you need an enclosed heat box that help keep the surrounding heat higher while you maintain the focus on one spot :hmm:
i might go and sacrifice a paddle ...they're almost gun wrist thick...

 

[jerrywh]

If it Smokes it's too hot ? When that oil smokes your getting close to 600 deg. You only want about 400 deg.to 450 deg.

 

[davy]

Hey Jerry

Well after over three hours of no change in the heel height, and having to constantly watch the distance/heat relationship .. what else is there to be done?

Or did I just have the piece of walnut from concrete hell? It just did not move .. fact is ... the ONLY time I saw it show any movement at ALL was when it was at that VERY fine line of heat/smoking and so ... I found my self having to constantly adjust the heat lamp distance to keep it from smoking versus no response at all!

Bottom line ... after 5 hours of this, I finally threw in the towel, and glad I did too .. otherwise it would have been a burnt match stick! Almost was anyway .. I had to remove quite a bit of char just to get back to some semblance of ruined wood!

Is it reasonble in hindsite ...to consider putting a larger wrap on the wrist?

After no change for quite a while I did keep it soaked in linseed oil by dripping it on periodically .. it was getting pretty dry!

Suggestions ... if I ever get the courage up to try it again? Besides no smoke of course? :nono:

Davy

 

[jerrywh]

I can't see how you had it clamped by the photo.
Perhaps this is one of those things that needs to be shown in person. Remember me saying If your not sure try it on a shovel handle first?
If you had it clamped correctly then you just needed more weight on the end.
Do you know what a rodded stock is? Some gun makers put a metal rod in the stock inside of the wrist to strengthen them. check that out. It could have epoxy over the entre hole so it will be hard to tell. Look in the stock behind the hook breach for a tell tail sign.

 

[davy]

Hello Jerry

A far as I could tell .. no rod in the woodwork. I just looked at it again just to be sure! :thumbsup:

I clamped the "buttstock only" in a large vice padded with wood and padding, on a very stout immovable workbench .. believe me, there was not gonna be any no movement from there (and there was not either, even after 5 hours!)! :grin:

I also started out with nothing but the gun barrel as weight applied to bend the wrist. By the time the 5 hours was over, I had twice the weight of the barrel for good measure for weighing down the front of the gun to hopefully entice the wrist to bend a bit! I was afraid to add any more for fear or breaking the stock! It did finally move less thn a 3/8 of an inch but that is all after 5 hours. :cursing:

I finally ened my experiment as I was concerned with the smoking and possible damage and stress to the stock! Turns out you were right on the smoking, and the stock was as you can see well damaged! :cursing:

Davy