Help with refinishing my muzzle crown

[zimmerstutzen]

Using a tapered, non-piloted counter bore , in the crown, is not a very accurate way to get it square with the muzzle.

Unless you are three sheets to the wind, and suffer vertigo anyway, it is not rocket science to hold the countersink in line with the bore. The firearm we are discussing is not a 1,000 yd bench rifle., in which case I would agree. The gun does not have a false muzzle, a long sight radius or other attributes of precision. How many colonial gun smiths do you think crowned their muzzles from the breech? The way I suggested is more accurate than the barrel, it's sights and 999 out of 1,000 shooters. There is no reason to over think the process where the gun was never capable of moon shot precision anyway.



What you advocate is about as necessary as International redfield aperture sights on a brown bess.

 

[Ketchakah]

I am not a gunsnsmith, but I dont think Coning will help that, as the damage is in the groove, not the lands. Some coning I have seen does create a funnel like feature and would remove that, But i am told proper coning only effects the lands of the rifling. At least thats what MM did on mine.

I think I would try a very small Half round file to take off the burr. Might work fine, Might not. But wont cost anything and wont hurt it if you have to have it recrowned. Just go really really careful.

 

[M. De Land]

Unless you are three sheets to the wind, and suffer vertigo anyway, it is not rocket science to hold the countersink in line with the bore. The firearm we are discussing is not a 1,000 yd bench rifle., in which case I would agree. The gun does not have a false muzzle, a long sight radius or other attributes of precision. How many colonial gun smiths do you think crowned their muzzles from the breech? The way I suggested is more accurate than the barrel, it's sights and 999 out of 1,000 shooters. There is no reason to over think the process where the gun was never capable of moon shot precision anyway.



What you advocate is about as necessary as International redfield aperture sights on a brown bess.

I am a schooled gunsmith, have cut and finished hundreds of barrel crowns of all types for nearly 40 years and no one can hold a counter sink perfectly co-axial with the bore by hand,even using a slow orbital movement when cutting will not make a perfectly "square with crown" chamfer. A piloted counter sink is better but I have never liked the idea of a hard steel pilot rotation-ally rubbing the land tops while cutting the crown chamfer.
As Zonie suggested, most regular type counter sinks will induce chatter although the diagonally holed counter sinks are much smoother in this regard.
Folks get away with using poor hand work technique because most muzzle loaders are shot off hand and the inaccuracy cannot be detected. The proper attitude (in my opinion) is for the gun builder to employ every mechanical accuracy advantage available, to the best of his/her ability, so that the shooter is the greatest variable.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

It will not chatter if hand turned slowly and lightly. Both Zonie and I warned against using power tools. All deference to your years of skill, but it doesn't mean crap with a production muzzle loader pistol. The guy that taught me, was one of the best barrel makers in the business of target muzzle loaders for at least two decades. His competition team/ Mike Bell kicked a lot of butt all over the East with H&H barrels crowned the way I said. If a builder would only use the best materials and techniques, that pistol and thousands of Pietta, CVA and traditions pistols would not even exist. They exist, they exist to a certain level of quality and capability. Between the crappy sights, short sight radius and production quality barrel, and most shooters, whether the cutter is held "dead balls on" or 2 or even 3 degrees off makes no ultimate difference to that particular gun. If we were talking about a Lewis or Yazel pistol or perhaps international competition, then sure, as true as technically possible. If we were talking that level of competition, that pistol would not be part of the equation, especially with that mar to the muzzle. It is a good shooting pistol, but considering the wear from loading the first 100 shots, whether the crown was done with rocket science precision won't matter, it will be off again.

 

[M. De Land]

It will not chatter if hand turned slowly and lightly. Both Zonie and I warned against using power tools. All deference to your years of skill, but it doesn't mean crap with a production muzzle loader pistol. The guy that taught me, was one of the best barrel makers in the business of target muzzle loaders for at least two decades. His competition team/ Mike Bell kicked a lot of butt all over the East with H&H barrels crowned the way I said. If a builder would only use the best materials and techniques, that pistol and thousands of Pietta, CVA and traditions pistols would not even exist. They exist, they exist to a certain level of quality and capability. Between the crappy sights, short sight radius and production quality barrel, and most shooters, whether the cutter is held "dead balls on" or 2 or even 3 degrees off makes no ultimate difference to that particular gun. If we were talking about a Lewis or Yazel pistol or perhaps international competition, then sure, as true as technically possible. If we were talking that level of competition, that pistol would not be part of the equation, especially with that mar to the muzzle. It is a good shooting pistol, but considering the wear from loading the first 100 shots, whether the crown was done with rocket science precision won't matter, it will be off again.

I own and shoot two Yazels and the muzzle will not be altered if a proper muzzle protector is made and used when loading.

 

[M. De Land]

Recently I was fortunate enough to acquire a muzzle loading pistol, a model that I have been admiring for some time. The gun is in great shape overall, however the barrel crown needs to be cleaned-up. I am not sure how this kind of damage could occur, but it looks like a little work should shape it correctly.

I’ve read about using a brass screw head, grit, and a hand-turn drill. Also, I have looked at various tools available to dress crowns. The question I have is to see if you can recommend a methodology to achieve a nice-looking crown for this gun.

I am handy with tools so can tackle a project like this using hand tools. I don’t have a lathe. I wouldn’t be averse to having a gunsmith do this for me if that is the overall consensus.

I appreciate any advice that you can give me.

The brass screw method :

The first two images below I found on the web. The third is my barrel.
1) Factory crown
2) Custom barrel crown
3) My crown

View attachment 3663 View attachment 3664 View attachment 3665

I would simply pull the hooked breech, install my Brownell's crown cutting tool in the bore with a brass bushing in the breech and another at the muzzle to hold the drive rod perfectly co-axial and turn a new crown and chamfer. I've used it on numerous pistol barrel re-crowns. It can also be done in the headstock of a lathe with a four jaw chuck if the spindle hole is large enough. The rear sight would probably need removed in that case.
It's rather simple to do by hand or machine with the right tools but can sure be mucked up if attempted without them.
Depending on how far the metal is distorted into the bore it may need to have the flat crown cut back, a new chamfer cut then sand paper dressed.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

My Yazel and Lewis pistols (flint and perc) all had false muzzles. And a muzzle protector does not stop the polishing,burnishing and wear of the muzzle crown by the patches and seating of the ball. It may stop the ram rod and even a short starter shaft from wearing the muzzle, it will not stop the patch compressed by the ball from wearing on the crown.

 

[M. De Land]

I have never, ever seen a muzzle crown properly cut and chamfered, damaged from proper patched ball seating when a down bore muzzle protector is used. Polished of course, but ram rod wear is what destroys accuracy not a patch ball being seated.
False muzzles are not really about seating rod muzzle wear any way, they are about perfect ball insertion into a non-chamfered muzzle or in the case of conical shooting , perfect slug seating ,co-axial alignment.
Actually a muzzle protector should also be used through a false muzzle to keep the loading rod off the barrel lands below the false muzzle.

 

[oldwolf]

My gunsmith finished repairing the crown of the barrel.
Once I have it in my grubby little hands I'll post better pictures.
He only needed to use a chamfer and didn't need to remove any material from crown.

 

[M. De Land]

Good deal, looks great!

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Let's see, take off the rear sight, pull the breech plug, insert rolls royce barrel crowning tool, , rebreech barrel install sight and charge customer 50% of the cost of the pistol.

I have never, ever seen a muzzle crown properly cut and chamfered, damaged from proper patched ball seating when a down bore muzzle protector is used. Polished of course, but ram rod wear is what destroys accuracy not a patch ball being seated.
False muzzles are not really about seating rod muzzle wear any way, they are about perfect ball insertion into a non-chamfered muzzle or in the case of conical shooting , perfect slug seating ,co-axial alignment.
Actually a muzzle protector should also be used through a false muzzle to keep the loading rod off the barrel lands below the false muzzle.

You make no sense whatever, how do you keep the compressed patch from touching the crown with a muzzle protector? I have seen plenty of guns with the lands polished at the crown from the polishing action of the patches. There is no reason to spend $200 crowning a $300 gun, when it will make no difference to it's ultimate level of accuracy.

The gunsmith chamfered it, but couldn't mount an octagon barrel in his lathe. That tells me what he probably did.

 

[oldwolf]

You guys are going bonkers.
He said he installed his 4-jaw chuck in his lathe to work with the octagonal barrel.
Total bill for the work was $40.
It is very nicely done.

 

[Phil Coffins]

You found a competent gunsmith. Good for you.

 

[oldwolf]

You found a competent gunsmith. Good for you.

Besides being a good gunsmith, he holds the 1000-Yard Heavy Gun World Record (3.048"!!).

 

[brayhaven]

I would simply pull the hooked breech, install my Brownell's crown cutting tool in the bore with a brass bushing in the breech and another at the muzzle to hold the drive rod perfectly co-axial and turn a new crown and chamfer. I've used it on numerous pistol barrel re-crowns. It can also be done in the headstock of a lathe with a four jaw chuck if the spindle hole is large enough. The rear sight would probably need removed in that case.
It's rather simple to do by hand or machine with the right tools but can sure be mucked up if attempted without them.
Depending on how far the metal is distorted into the bore it may need to have the flat crown cut back, a new chamfer cut then sand paper dressed.

That’s the way I do crowns as well cartridge & ML. and have also used the Brownell lathe crowning tool and made several similar ones. I make a brass bore size mandrel and center with a dial indicator in a 4 jaw Chuck. I like to put a radius on the crown with no sharp edges. Makes it easier to load and doesn’t cut patches. Also less likely to burr. I make caliber sized muzzle protectors out of HDPE, for the ramrod. also make short starters of the same material. Keeps the muzzle area undamaged. Muleskinner

 

[zimmerstutzen]

A 4 jaw was obviously the way to go for a lathe operation, assuming there is no barrel run out and the bore is otherwise centered/ he can center it. Totally unnecessary to pull the breech plug, etc. When you posted his question about a hex barrel, I started to wonder about the guy. (Although I do have a Fernwood muzzle loader pistol with a hex barrel, pretty rare, only ever seen two ) 99.99 % of muzzle loaders have round or octagon barrels. often tapered but almost never Hexagon.

 

[M. De Land]

A 4 jaw was obviously the way to go for a lathe operation, assuming there is no barrel run out and the bore is otherwise centered/ he can center it. Totally unnecessary to pull the breech plug, etc. When you posted his question about a hex barrel, I started to wonder about the guy. (Although I do have a Fernwood muzzle loader pistol with a hex barrel, pretty rare, only ever seen two ) 99.99 % of muzzle loaders have round or octagon barrels. often tapered but almost never Hexagon.

My lathe spindle hole is only .750 so I would not have been able to use my four jaw. It can be done with a center lay out and spider but takes a lot of time to get centered. The easiest method for me would have been to remove the breech and use the Brownell's tool.
Your smith did a nice job and it looks like he also touched up the blue!
I am always amused at how afraid folks are to remove a breech plug or in this case a hooked breech. Really, it is no big deal with the proper tools and is actually a good excuse to check the seal and see if any corrosion may have gotten started.
About the only down side I can think of is disturbing the joint line where the breech and barrel come together.

 

[Bad Karma]

View attachment 3688 View attachment 3689 View attachment 3690
At this point you may need to have a gunsmith fix that muzzle. I've had good luck using Brownells tool and lapping compound on muzzles with mildly buggered rifling. At this point though I agree a recrown by someone with the proper cutters and bushings to do it right is in order.

You can also rent the proper tools from 4d rentals online. Great folks and it’s cheaper than a smith. Depending on how handy the op is, it could be an option.

 

[PluggedNickel]

True,,,but the battered area of the crown is bulging into the path of the patched ball.
I suppose there is a small chance that could increase accuracy...

Not likely, I'm betting that buggered rifling will in fact screw with the accuracy! That is why almost, nobody sugested shooting it first, as it may shoot OK, or be a tack driver. If you want to establish a base line, in other words, see how ****** it shoots now, and then see the improvement after a re-crown go for it.

 

[PluggedNickel]

If one is going to hand crown taper than it is done most accurately through a bushing-ed pull rod, rotated from the other end of the barrel . This maintains perfect, perpendicular, coaxial crown axis (square), which is hard to do without a lathe or at least snugly fitting pilot on the crown cutter. Using a tapered, non-piloted counter bore , in the crown, is not a very accurate way to get it square with the muzzle.

That is true. Not worth the cost of purchasing the piloted crown cutter from Brownells for one gun though. I would take it to a Smith and get it done right.