Historic definition of "Swan Shot"

[satx78247]

OK. I'll bite. = What exactly "was intended"??
(Perhaps I misunderstood your post?? - It sounded like you didn't regard the museum's records as accurate. - I've noted in the past that your comments seem "just a bit sharp".)

yours, satx

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yes! it was my razor wit... :haha: sorry if you took it personal....it wasn't directed at you.
I was simply suggesting that perhaps the size was mislabeled....
It wasn't a "dig" on museum curators....although I saw an exhibit last summer that had all kinds of inaccuracies including fake arrows......To their credit though they weren't trying to pass them off as originals....

 

[Artificer]

More on Rupert Shot

Capt. Jas. wrote in another thread:
“Even Rupert's (1619-1682) detailing of the shot making process of drip shot contains details of keeping the shot round and avoiding tails. "so long as you observe the right temper of the heat, the lead will constantly drop in to very round shot, without so much as one with a tail in many pounds."

Capt. Jas. did not mean Rupert Shot was perfectly round shot, but rather more round than the earlier “Tumbled Shot” that came from cutting lead cubes from sheet lead and tumbling them to round off the corners. (He explained that later.)

For more info on how Rupert Shot was made:

From Colonial Frontier Guns by T. M. Hamilton. Page 132

“Briefly, Rupert Shot was made by placing a brass, colander-type dish, with a heavy rim to hold the heat, some ten inches or so above a pan of water. Live coals were placed in the colander to heat it; and melted lead, fluxed with arsenic, was then poured into the colander, trickled down through the coals and holes and falling as droplets into water. The result was shot, not perfectly round, but ovoid, almost heart-shaped in cross section, with a small dimple on the more flattened side. I first discovered and identified this Rupert Shot when working with the Tunica material, and have found it present in every 18th century site I have studied since then.”

The following link gives further archeological information on lead shot from: Plantation Archaeology at Rivière aux Chiens, ca. 1725-1848. Scroll down to pages Pages 160-1
http://www.academia.edu/5478106/Pl...aux_Chiens_ca._1725-1848_with_Bonnie_L._Gums_

From: Olde Mobile Archeology

“Rupert shot was the most common lead shot (10,726 pieces) from the Dog River site. The production of Rupert shot was first detailed in a 1665 publication entitled To make small shot of different sizes; Communicated by his Highness P. R. [Prince Rupert of England]. It was made by heating lead in a colander from which small drops fell as pellets into a container of water. Rupert shot at the Dog River site dates to the Rochon occupation of the French and early British colonial periods.”
http://www.southalabama.edu/archaeology/dog-river-weaponry.html

Many of the sites that Hamilton and others have studied were French occupied or first French and then British occupied. However, Rupert shot was also the common “small shot” for the British and Colonial British Americans, as we would expect.

Technically these cannot be Rupert Shot as they are too early, IF correctly as having come from the French cartographer Samuel de Champlain when he visited an Almouchiquois Indian village in 1605. However, my GUESS is they came from a later period.

Featured Items from the Abbe's Collections (In Maine) http://www.abbemuseum.org/research/collections/curator-features/lead-shot.html

Some Rupert shot and other interesting items found at the: Thomas Daniels Archaeological Site, An Early 18th-Century Connecticut Homestead

Please also note the very typical “Gun Spall” flints that were commonly made in England until the AWI period when captured French Prisoners and others taught the British how to make the “French Style Flints” that today we know as “English Flints.”
http://www.ct.gov/dot/cwp/view.asp?a=3873&q=454098

From: The Storm Wreck Concretions: A Look Beneath the Surface

“Rupert shot are lead shot manufactured by a process invented and first described by Prince Rupert of the Rhine in 1665. Prince Rupert was a German-born nobleman, soldier, general, admiral, and scientist who was the grandson of England’s James I (Dircks 1867:221; Bryce 1984:55). The Rupert process leaves distinctive characteristics, including a somewhat ovoid shape and a slight dimple. A more modern process of producing spherical shot was introduced in the 1780s, but the manufacture of Rupert shot continued well into the 19th century (Meide et al. 2011:128). Thousands of these tiny lead pellets in the 0.25 cm (0.10in.) to 0.50 cm (0.20in.) size range have been discovered on the Storm Wreck, especially in the 2010 excavation units. Similar tiny lead projectiles have been recovered from other colonial shipwreck sites including La Belle (1686), Queen Anne’s Revenge (1718), and Machault (1760) (Bruseth and Turner 2005:96; North Carolina Underwater Archaeology Branch 2010; Bryce 1984:52, 55).”
http://www.academia.edu/13207591/The_Storm_Wreck_Concretions_A_Look_Beneath_the_Surface

Gus

 

[Nativearizonan]

I really don't have an answer but refuse to rule out the possibility that both answers may be correct. Just saying.

Such ambiguity also prevents the possibility of you being correct.

I fail to follow your logic on this. You are saying there can only be one right answer to every question?

 

[Capt. Jas.]

In F&I period Bedford Co, VA, the militia preferred goose shot to the single ball projectile for Indian engagements.

Do you have any more information on that or the source it came from? Do you know if they used this for the first round and then went to ball or did they perhaps make cartridges with shot instead of balls?

I am particularly fascinated by this quote both historically and as early in my modern Marine career, Double Aught Buck Shot saved my hide on more than one occasion in close action.

Gus

Gus,
I will look for the source. It is for sure in VA documents and possibly I have cited here before.

 

[George]

In F&I period Bedford Co, VA, the militia preferred goose shot to the single ball projectile for Indian engagements.

Loading a ball plus swan shot was common in the 18th century for both civilians and the military.

Cresswell’s journal, June 28, 1775
"Out of twelve Guns five were rendered unfit for present use by the wet, mine happened to be in good order and I loaded her with an ounce bullet and seven swan shot”¦.."

The Pennsylvania Gazette
May 27, 1756
"The Indian, with a fine French Gun, mortally wounded Cresap with a Bullet and seven Swan shot in the Breast."

The Pennsylvania Packet
October 17, 1778
Title: May it please the CONGRESS.
"The men of my regiment were armed with muskets and bayonets, they were no great marksmen, and were aukward at wood fighting. The bullet and three swan shot in each piece, made up in some measure for the want of skill”¦.."

The Pennsylvania Gazette
January 30, 1750
BOSTON, January 1.
"About a month past a sorrowful accident happened at Rutland in the county of Worcester, two young men, one named Taylor, the other Heaton, went out a hunting, and being in a swamp a few rods from each other, Heaton suddenly rising up among the bushes being thick, the other took him for a deer, shot at him, and so wounded him with a bullet and swan shot , that he died in a few days after."

The Pennsylvania Gazette
January 5, 1774
PHILADELPHIA, January 4.
"And the next Day Thomas Wilson was convicted of Murder, for shooting William Hewit through the Body with a Bullet and three Swan Shot , the 29th of October, 1768."

The Pennsylvania Gazette
April 11, 1778
LONDON, December 24, 25.
Dec. 26, 27. "We are informed the reason so many brave men and officers were lost under Gen. Burgoyne was, the American musquet cartridges were made up with one ball and two buck shot , which killed our men outright, or left them cripples forever, by being wounded in two or three different places at one shot."

And:
THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE
Date: December 9, 1775
Title: LONDON, August 26.
"The plumbers at the tower are now casting great quantities of buck shot in imitation of those used by the Americans."

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Let's recap what we have learned.......

Rupert shot has tails....
Drop shot has no tails.....
Prior to the invention of the shot tower, shot larger than about.20 was probably cast.

"Swan" shot was a usage designation given to shot that was smaller than buckshot but bigger than birdshot, with the intention of killing swans.

Depending on when it was made and who made it, "swan" shot could be Cut, dropped, Rupert, or cast.

If the guy in the video had said that the shot he was making was Rupert style "swan shot"....he would be correct.


I await group critique.... :haha:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Gus, I found I had some info. already on the pc so here it is starting with that source you requested where one could possibly surmise in this instance goose shot alone was preferred IN LIEU of a single projectile.

From the Executive Journals of the Council of Colonial Va., February 1st, 1757

"His honor (Governor) was pleased likewise to lay before the board two letters from Colo. Read dated 24th of january (1757) acknowledging in his first the receipt of his Honor's letter by Capt. Voss, and signifying that he has writ to Mr. Calloway in Bedford to know what arms and ammunition he has, that he had not yet received any account from him and was apprehensive of a bad one in regard to the powder and ball from the extravagant use made of it by the several companies, that 100 guns ordered him, he had supplied as directed Colo. Fontaine with 40 , that Captain Hogg in behalf of Stalnaker had 11 so that only 49 remained, that he has 200 which were last sent, about 600 pounds of powder, but few musket balls and no flints. , desires a supply of 1000 pounds of ball, and 1000 flints to be forwarded by Mr. James Deans, merchant in Chesterfield -he believes it will be some time in March before the volunteers can be ready to go out- He thinks every man should have a wallet of oznabrigs to carry his provisions in when they leave their horses at the passes of the mountains, and two pair of mockasheens- that blankets would be wanted and clasp knives, thread for the linen, and woolen bags for transporting the powder when taken from the wagons....-that after the meeting for the choice of officers, he shall instantly send to his Honor for commissions-enclosing the account of the money he received by his Honor's warrant from the treasurer, and how it has been applied, with an estimate of cash wanting to pay the people employed by him to kill and cure the provisions, also to pay the men and officers of Lunenburg who were out on duty till discharged in November, and accounts of the like nature from Bedford..........In his second letter he desires that a sufficient quanity of large goose-shot may be sent, which is judged preferable to bullets, and proposes as an encouragement to the people in Augusta, Bedford and Halifax who are esteemed the best woodsmen to engage as volunteers in the association that two or three companies of the militia of some of the adjacent counties be sent to garrison the three forts in Augusta during the time the associators shall be out on the expedition......

A New Voyage to Carolina; Containing the Exact Description and Natural History of That Country: Together with the Present State Thereof. And A Journal of a Thousand Miles, Travel'd Thro' Several Nations of Indians. Giving a Particular Account of Their Customs, Manners, &c.
by Lawson, John, 1674-1711

At Night, we lay by a swift Current, where we saw plenty of Turkies, but pearch'd upon such lofty Oaks, that our Guns would not kill them, tho' we shot very often, and our Guns were very good. Some of our Company shot several times, at one Turkey, before he would fly away, the Pieces being loaded with large Goose-shot.

INVENTORY OF ESTATE OF THOMAS HANCOCK 1738, AUGUST 21 ( I have just listed the gun related parts that includes various shot sizes including swan)

York County July the 26th 1738
An Inventory and Appraisment of so much of the Estate of Thomas Hancock decd. as was exhibited to Us the Subscribers the day & year above written that is to say
1 barrel of Gun powder FF in the hands of Messers. Hasmer & King as we are informed
½ barrel Gun powder F E
½ barrel ditto F
½ lb. Mustard Seed Shott
½ lb. duck Shott
½ lb. Swan Shott
1 M Gun flints in 2 papers cost 6/6
40 Carolina Guns
a bagg of gun flints
1 pr. bridle lock horse pistols
2 Guns or Muskets
1 bungbour
1 pr. brass barrel pistols brass mount
1 pr. Steele barrel pistols brass mount
1 pr. pocket pistols

 

[coloradoclyde]

1 bungbour

What's a bungbour ?????? :idunno:

 

[George]

CC said:

Rupert shot has tails.... [not al of them]
Drop shot has no tails.....[depends on how high you drop them. I have references to drop shot for sale in the 1730s, long before shot towers.]

Prior to the invention of the shot tower, shot larger than about.20 was probably cast. [speculation, have references to 'large drop shot'.]

"Swan" shot was a usage designation given to shot that was smaller than buckshot but bigger than birdshot, with the intention of killing swans. [generally true.]

Depending on when it was made and who made it, "swan" shot could be Cut, dropped, Rupert, or cast. [swan shot was molded shot, IMHO.]

If the guy in the video had said that the shot he was making was Rupert style "swan shot"....he would be correct. [He was making Rupert shot, the 'swan' is a modern interpretation, and incorrect.]

Spence

 

[Capt. Jas.]

The earliest reports of making Rupert were to AVOID the tails. Ideally, the Rupert will be as close to round as possible. Tailed Rupert is poorly done Rupert.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Here is a 1648 quote from William Bradford in Plymouth citing molds for swan shot.....
http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey1/41docs/14-bra.html

notwithstanding any laws to the contrary; so as the Indians are full of pieces all over, both fowling pieces, muskets, pistols, etc. They have also their moulds to make shot, of all sorts, as muskett bulletts, pistoll bullets, swan and goose shot, and of smaller sorts; .

 

[coloradoclyde]

Squishy this bog is......The ground gives way to knee deep mud at almost every step... :rotf:

 

[Artificer]

First to Spence,

GREAT quotes on 18th century period "Buck and Ball" Loads. Thank you.

To Capt. Jas.

WOW, that really fills out the story on the Bedford County men using shot loads. Thank you.

To both of you gentlemen,

A very hearty :thumbsup: and :hatsoff: to you both.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Let's recap what we have learned.......

Rupert shot has tails....
Drop shot has no tails.....
Prior to the invention of the shot tower, shot larger than about.20 was probably cast.

"Swan" shot was a usage designation given to shot that was smaller than buckshot but bigger than birdshot, with the intention of killing swans.

Depending on when it was made and who made it, "swan" shot could be Cut, dropped, Rupert, or cast.

If the guy in the video had said that the shot he was making was Rupert style "swan shot"....he would be correct.


I await group critique.... :haha:

CC,

I apologize for earlier cutting short my post on Rupert Shot, that probably led to some confusion.

What I also wanted to convey was:

1. Rupert shot was "commercially manufactured" in huge quantities and supplied by both the French and English all over the American Colonies.

2. The commercial technique to manufacture Rupert shot in what we would call "bird shot sizes" was not how they made Swan shot, as Swan shot was always cast.

3. Commercially manufactured Rupert Shot was basically ovoid/round with NO Tails on them and this is supported by the archeological evidence from sites all over the American Colonies. (This is why Capt. Jas. has stated that "tailed Rupert Shot" is poorly made Rupert shot.)

If I may, I would like to go back to the description of how Rupert Shot was commercially made and then compare it with how it was made in the modern video linked in the thread.

The description of the period way to manufacture Rupert shot was:

“Briefly, Rupert Shot was made by placing a brass, colander-type dish, with a heavy rim to hold the heat, some ten inches or so above a pan of water. Live coals were placed in the colander to heat it; and melted lead, fluxed with arsenic, was then poured into the colander, trickled down through the coals and holes and falling as droplets into water. The result was shot, not perfectly round, but ovoid, almost heart-shaped in cross section, with a small dimple on the more flattened side."

The above commercial technique is very different from how the guy made his "tailed shot" in the linked video; other than in both cases a lot of little holes were used to pour through the molten lead. The Arsenic Flux, heavy rimmed colander to retain heat, and pouring the lead through the hot coals in the colander about 10 inches over the water; very consistently ensured the commercial Rupert Shot did not have tails.

The way the guy in the link made "tailed shot" was by just pouring the molten lead through a rather thin plate that had many holes in it. This is how an individual person MAY have made small shot in the period, but it really wasn't Rupert Shot. The guy seems to have been imitating the way Rupert Shot was made, but because he didn't "follow all the directions," his shot came out tailed in almost every shot, if not every shot. :redface:

I hope this clears the mud at least a little bit.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

Thanks for the clarification....

 

[Artificer]

My apologies for forgetting to include the link on: The Storm Wreck Concretions: A Look Beneath the Surface

Now that I am more awake :redface: , here is the link: http://www.academia.edu/13207591/The_Storm_Wreck_Concretions_A_Look_Beneath_the_Surface

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Thanks for the clarification....

You are most welcome and my apology I was not initially more clear.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

1 bungbour

What's a bungbour ?????? :idunno:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Yes, what is a bungbour?
:grin: