Historical conicals?

[ravenousfishing]

First off, this post is not meant to start up any kind of turf war as other recent posts have done. Besides the .58 Minie,what other type of conicals were used in the past and are there any moulds available for these? Didn't the Mississippi Rifle use a .54 Minie, and if so, couldn't it be assumed that some of these got used in civilian guns as well? I understand that most of the commercially available bullets ARE NOT based on any historic versions and yes, I understand that the vast majority used PRBs and that they are more than capable, so please don't turn this into a debate of round ball vs. conical. That has been hashed out plenty in the past. Just think it might be fun to shoot something differen't now and then.

 

[gmww]

Good question. I asked it also in the other thread. Minie and Picket are the ones I hear the most.

 

[Dphar]

You can shoot anything you want. The Minie can be a lot of fun I am sure especially if you live in the west and can shoot at stuff and 300-500 yards.
But you did ask so here goes...
It is impossible not to mention the RB in such a discussion so this is not a RB is better statement it is a statement of what I consider to be fact based on historical sources and experiences of myself and others.

Historically the problem is three fold. Economics, safety and performance on game.
The mine ball is about double the weight of the RB of the same caliber. It costs twice as much lead to shoot as a RB. The original Minie would not tolerate powder charges heavy enough to give the same trajectory to 120-150 yards as a RB. Its a military bullet shooting at a man near 6 foot tall does not require a flat trajectory.
The Minie and many other "naked" bullets tend to move off the powder and form bore obstuctions. Just a fact. Do some testing.

The Minie ball was notorious for failing to track straight when it stuck. The Maxi-Ball has the same problem if fired from a 48" twist on large game or so I am told by moose hunters.
British military surgeons of the Crimean War first noted this. They would turn 45 to 90 degrees and exit far from the entrance wound. The old RB would track straight though the body.
This is a problem in hunting big game. 2 years ago I tried some Hornady "Lever Revolution" loads in my 45-70. These bullets do not track straight either and as a result I had to shoot one deer twice though the first shot was neat perfect, and the other though struck in the "perfect" spot for a heart shot at a near perfect broadside angle (I watched him till he gave me the shot) ended up with green stomach contents EVERYWHERE when the bullet tuned 45 degrees, missed the heart and exited at the offside flank.
This is serious detriment when shooting aminals and it gets worse as the size of the animal increases with ML bullets fired from slow twists.
Oh yes, it kicks harder too.
So it used more lead, could not be made to shoot flat, kicked harder and performed poorly on game. There is no advantage to the civilian. Its not if they used them its "why would they use them"?

By the 1830s-40s a lot of experimentation was going on with slugs and picket bullets. The cloth patched picket gained some popularity in the east for hunting. They would shoot very well to 200 yards or shot flatter than a RB at 200. But they were not much heavier than the RB and they were more critical to load straight. They were shot from twists of 1:48 or faster. Current knowledge indicates the Picket needs something in the 30-36" range for best accuracy. They also work best if used with a guide starter and many small caliber rifles post 1830s in 32-38-44 have barrels turned round at the muzzle for such a device. I have no information on the Picket's use on game. But it apparently worked. See Ned Roberts ML Caplock Rifle.

Dan

P.S. I am sure some Minies were used by civilians. Thinking nobody used them is just silly.

 

[tg]

There was a guy around the forums a few years ago who was into this pretty deep but I lost track of him, the earlier ones were sugarloaf, lozenge double ball, the minnie type was probably one of the earliest form that found wide usage(military)I don't know what the Missippi rifle used but it's a stretch to
consider there was much use in civy guns early on but the 1850's probably and into and mixing in with the cartridge guns they got more common guns were prbably not made for use with the connicals and may not have done well with them, many of the early ones were flat based and paper patched, late 1840's -1850's would likley be the time the conicals got to be used more and more but i suspect in guns made for them more so than useing them in older guns, I wish I could find Robin he had a lot of stuff on this I am going of of degenerating grey matter...

 

[tg]

". Just think it might be fun to shoot something differen't now and then"

I couldn't agree more I wish there were more period bullets and moulds avaiable for those who like conicals, I think that the issue may be that many of them may not have been spectacular in performance, T&C tried many when deveoping the "Hawkin" but found none that gave the performance they wanted, the early ones may not have worked real well in the average gun of the time, just a thought there must be some reason that many of them are not being made/used

 

[Idaho Ron]

Does the north south skirmish mould from RCBS have any actual historical relevance. Or is it just a name? Ron

 

[cowpoke1955]

I also wonder. You have the "Plains" type rifles with big, heavy barrels made to shoot stout loads for game like bison, grizzly and elk. The minie was designed to be fired from a musket with a lighter powder charge. What did these men of the great plains and the Rocky Mountains shoot out of those big rifles at dangerous game? I think it's a valid question :hmm: .

 

[jdstrang]

Does the north south skirmish mould from RCBS have any actual historical relevance. Or is it just a name? Ron

No historical relevance. The bullet, a sort of cross between a mini and a wadcutter, was developed by an ardent skirmisher (now deceased) working with Hodgdon. Some folks had/have really good results with them; I am not among them.

There IS, however, another class of historic bullet, moulds for which are or were being produced by a fellow named Greg Edington. It's called the Wilkinson, a sort of wasp-waisted conical. and there's much written about it at the North-South Skirmish Assn.'s bb. Here's a link to one involved posting:
http://www.n-ssa.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=7517&highlight=wilkinson

Search that board for "Wilkinson" and you'll find pics, etc.

 

[tg]

"Does the north south skirmish mould from RCBS have any actual historical relevance. Or is it just a name? Ron "

I don't realy know Ron there is a lot of wishfull thinking in this game but it could vary well be or an improvement of an original this period is later than my resorces go, I am not aware of a great variety of bullets used in the Civil war, but my knowledge is light and based on memory from some indepth corespondense several years ago and memory is often not a very good source,

 

[tg]

"What did these men of the great plains and the Rocky Mountains shoot out of those big rifles at dangerous game?"

I would bet the PRB was the standard, look at all the posts on this forum about how to get the most out of a high tech design conical with various guns and loads, I really believe that back then they would have used what they knew would work a large ball and a stout powder load the gus were made for this and the balls would use less lead, the bullet is better for game had probably not yet become a common conncept on the frontier, the big bore Buffalo Breech loaders brought this concept in a big way, they could have gotten in closer and use a mdl66 and put several rounds into a buff and kill it but it was more efficient to sit in one place farther away and drop them as long as they stayed put, just a thought as I said i have not looked into this later aspect of ML shooting and hunting for many years, I have seen several mould with a RB and a solid short sugarloaf type flat based bullet both in the same mould all have been on the small side and I suspected thay were for ML revolvers, I found one that looked pretty old that almost worked in my .36 Navy colt but was to tight, I guess these could be made for rifles as well but I have not seen any large cal ones.And again I am not so sure how handy and efficient these early simple bullets were, they may not have been popular in the begining.

 

[Tumblernotch]

The M1841 Harpers Ferry Rifle (Mississippi) originally used a patched round ball. When the Burton Minie was adopted in 1855, some Mississippis were bored to .58 and used the standard Minie. Otherwise, .54 cal. Minies were made for use in those not bored out.

An interesting side light was the fact that during the early years of the War, many southern "Kentucky" rifles were bored out to take the Minie and supposedly a lot of the thinned barrels ruptured due to being weakened. This would explain the relative scarcity of those rifles today. At least that's what I've heard.

 

[tg]

The use of conicals in Ml's is an interesting subject, they seem to have stated seeing more useage about the same time the cartridge guns became available, Sharps, Spencers, they had a relitivly short lifespan so to speak,except for the specialty target guns, little of record of well made ones pre 1840-50, I think the old Ball pretty much did the job for most non military types, as by the time a conical bullet was perfected we were in the cartridge era, may be why there is not a lot on them in period records non military.

 

[ravenousfishing]

After some of the replies to my original post, spent a couple of hours (yea, I was bored) surfing the net for info on these bullets. Found an interesting article on the picket or sugarloaf bullet in target rifles that describes the turned down muzzle Dan was referring to.(http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/1860TargetRifle.asp
Found several collectors sites selling Civil War bullets and was amazed at the variety, well over 100 different types per site. Southron Relics' website is a good representation with plenty of photos of the different styles.The Picket bullets appear to be in assorted calibers and I assume were provided to,or by,the troops that brought along their own guns, probably early in the war. Not a ballistics expert by any means, but these are definitly "primitive conicals". Kinda look like candy corn. :grin:
There are quite a few .54 cal bullets shown that look promising, including the Wilkenson style mentioned in an earlier post. This bullet resembles a Minnie with a rounder nose and a solid base. There are also several .54 cal Minnies with what appears to be a thicker skirt than the standard Minnie. I guess this would help with the problem of skirt blowout with larger loads. Be nice to have a mold for one of these to try out.

 

[tg]

I had forgotten about that site it does show a bunch of military bullets, what was the common twist and depth of grooves on the military guns at the time compared to the average civlian gun? any ideas, I have a Lorenze but the bore is toast from shooting pebbles and horseshoe nails.

 

[Tumblernotch]

If you can find a copy of Civil War Projectiles by McKee and Mason, you'll find many examples of bullets used not only in military ML's, but also in small bore long rifles and target rifles of the period. There was an amazing assortment of sizes, shapes and weights. This book is a very good reference book for bullets, not to mention various artillery projectiles and fuses. You'd be surprised at the variety in Minies and other conical bullets available at the time.

 

[tg]

Sounds like a good source, it would probably have the bullets used in the early breechloaders as well I think the Sharps falling block was around by 1850 and Smith and Wesson made a useable self contained rimfire in the mid 1850's, the Henry and Spencer were around by the begining of the war I believe, this was a tremendous time of change in the world of guns and ammo.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Not only breechloaders, but repeaters and revolvers as well. It also includes all foreign bullets imported on both sides. There are also dimensions, weights, lengths and calibers. The drawings and photographs are great.

Like I said, it also includes photos and specs for artillery ammunition (shrapnel, case shot, canister, grape), fuzes and primers, some rockets and some odd shell inventions.

The full title is Civil War Projectiles II,Small Arms & Field Artillery by W. Reid McKee and M.E. Mason Rapidan Press

I've seen it listed on different websites, but I don't know where you'd get the best deal. I got this one years ago as a gift. If you need to ID a bullet or shell you dig up, this is a good place to go. :grin:

Another interesting book is the Cartridge Manual An Illustrated Digest by W.A. Bartlett and D.B. Gallatin. Pioneer PressThis covers both military and sporting cartridge ammunition including shotguns. Part of the text was written by Martin Rywell. It lists every cartridge patent issued in the U.S., England and France prior to 1878. It is illustrated with cutaway drawings and includes patent numbers and descriptions of the cartridges.

Pioneer Press is/was in Union City, Tennessee, so there is a possibility that DGW may have copies in stock though this book is probably long out of print.

 

[ravenousfishing]

Now that I have gotten my curiosity up, I am going to have to get a copy. Seems like the M & M numbers are the standard of identification. I guess the more you think about it, the muzzle loading conical really had a short run, especially when you compare it to the PRB before and the cartridges after. Like TG said, by the time it was perfected, the breech loading cartridge had taken over. I would be willing to speculate though, that due to the surplus trade, etc, many of the successful bullets were used well after the traditional muzzle loading period ended, even though the guns and bullets themselves were designed and made during the latter part of that period.

 

[ravenousfishing]

Seems to me that most of the rifled muskets of the Civil War era had a slow twist barrel, though I think at least some styles had progressive rifleing. Has anybody on here tried the 54 cal minie balls in a 1:60 twist GPR, and if so what were the results? I see that Lyman and RCBS Hodgdon have 54 cal minnie ball moulds that I assume are for the 54 cal Mississippi. Can these bullets be bought already cast anywhere?

 

[tg]

I wonder how close some of the Minnies of today are to originals some advertise as original Minnies? there may have been a flood of bulets designed in that period but as mentioned above by the time the good ones floated to the top the ML era was abouit over, I suspect some folks may have used them in the post war years but the ball would have more than likley been the standard choice, it took the caplock a while to catch on the same was likely true with bullets in the old hog rifle or Plains rilfe many of these had 1/48 twists, it would be nice to find some period references about their use.More likely in the late 60's on rather than pre 1850 when there were fewer options.....better be carefull we are getting along in time here and may cross the acceptable date for topic (VBG)