Historical conicals?

[Dphar]

I also wonder. You have the "Plains" type rifles with big, heavy barrels made to shoot stout loads for game like bison, grizzly and elk. The minie was designed to be fired from a musket with a lighter powder charge. What did these men of the great plains and the Rocky Mountains shoot out of those big rifles at dangerous game? I think it's a valid question :hmm: .

Round balls almost exclusively. There is a reference to a man in Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail by Garrard concerning a Hawken shooting a bullet 1" long. Surely a picket bullet. But the problems enumerated in my earlier post kept them from being all that popular.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Seems to me that most of the rifled muskets of the Civil War era had a slow twist barrel, though I think at least some styles had progressive rifleing. Has anybody on here tried the 54 cal minie balls in a 1:60 twist GPR, and if so what were the results? I see that Lyman and RCBS Hodgdon have 54 cal minnie ball moulds that I assume are for the 54 cal Mississippi. Can these bullets be bought already cast anywhere?

The 58 Minie would shoot in a 72" twist. The prime reason it gave poor terminal performance on game.
The Minie flies like a dart with is heavy end forward. With a solid base the same length bullet will require at least a 48" twist.
The 48" twist will stabize a 2 caliber long bullet (about an inch in a 50 caliber) but its still marginally stabilized and will often veer off track when striking anything.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

If you can find a copy of Civil War Projectiles by McKee and Mason, you'll find many examples of bullets used not only in military ML's, but also in small bore long rifles and target rifles of the period. There was an amazing assortment of sizes, shapes and weights. This book is a very good reference book for bullets, not to mention various artillery projectiles and fuses. You'd be surprised at the variety in Minies and other conical bullets available at the time.

By the Civil War there were rifles shooting long heavy bullets. The Whitworth is the most famous. Many American rifles were shooting long heavy PP bullets but these were loaded with a false muzzle and while very accurate they are not practical for field use except in very specific circumstances such as sniping. Some were so heavy they would have needed to be crew served.
The shorter projectiles were generally what is lumped it to the cloth patched picket.
By the end of the Civil War, at leasat by 1867-68 the ML as a hunting arm in the west was pretty well dead though it hung on for years. It was killed off by breechloaders using the 40-70, 44-77 and 50-70 and the even more powerful cartridges that followed them in the late 60's and early 70's.
Battlefield pickup bullets do not represent what was in general use by civilians. After the Civil War there were people making a living with a boring machine in the back of a wagon boring minie ball rifles veterans brought home smooth for shot.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I wonder how close some of the Minnies of today are to originals some advertise as original Minnies? there may have been a flood of bulets designed in that period but as mentioned above by the time the good ones floated to the top the ML era was abouit over, I suspect some folks may have used them in the post war years but the ball would have more than likley been the standard choice, it took the caplock a while to catch on the same was likely true with bullets in the old hog rifle or Plains rilfe many of these had 1/48 twists, it would be nice to find some period references about their use.More likely in the late 60's on rather than pre 1850 when there were fewer options.....better be carefull we are getting along in time here and may cross the acceptable date for topic (VBG)

The Lyman Old Model 58 minie is pretty close to the original I think.

Dan

 

[tg]

I hope this thread has helped put a time line on the use of connicals in ML's and offered at least some insight as to the fact that todays differ from those of the past, quite often there is a tendacy to use todays in a pre 1840 type gun, even in flintlocks and call them traditional, just because there were some styles used in the 1850's and on, helps keep the whole thing in perspective.This might be a good thread to archive with the good reference material offered, and there is never a shortage of connical posts, this one will at least have some history behind it.

 

[Tumblernotch]

All U.S. .58 cal. rifle-muskets were rifled 1 turn in 72 inches. The P-53 Enfields were cut at 1 turn in 78 inches.

I'm no expert at figuring the optimum ratio of length and caliber of bullets, but Ordnance officers tested many sizes of "Minie" style bullets with various forms of rifling to see what worked the best with the least amount of fouling &c. I have noticed that in comparison with the .45 Whitworth slug, the .58 Original Style Minie seems a bit short in relation to it's length. My custom Richmond RM has a 6 groove .577 barrel that's rifled 1 turn in 48 that shoots quite well with a service charge of 60 grs. behind a Lyman OS mold. It shoots even better with 38 to 40 grs. of fffg at 50 yds.

As for progressive rifling, it was found in the 1855 trials that increasing twist rifling increased the drift but decreased the deviations if the twist was not increased too much. They ended up adopting uniform rate of twist in all Minie weapons, 1 in 72" for muskets and 1 in 48" for pistols. They did adopt progressive depth rifling in all weapons. In the musket this was .015" deep at the breech decreasing to .005" at the muzzle in the musket. In the pistol it was .008" at the breech decreasing to .005" at the muzzle.

If I remember right, I've seen pre-cast .54's advertised, but I can't remember who sold them.

 

[Tumblernotch]

The Lyman 575213 Old Style mold is about as close as I've seen th matching the originals that we are all familiar with. Of course, there were many styles used. This style was probably the most common, especially with Federal troops. I don't know how many machine made Minies were produced in the South, but most of those used by the North were swaged in bullet making machines. Molds were issued on both sides, but it seems to me that there are not too many original Minie molds in the collector or relic markets while round ball molds are quite common.

I'm sure that men who had access to muskets and molds post war used them, but I'm like you and believe that the round ball was the most common projectile until cartridge arms finally phased out the muzzleloader.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I agree that rifles firing elongated bullets were being used here before the War, mostly picket and sugarloaf bullets. There was also the Pope type sugarloaf designed specifically for false muzzle rifles. I would say, however that most of them were used by target shooting clubs in the North and Midwest. I believe that the majority of shooters everywhere still used the round ball.

The false muzzled heavy target rifle has been known to have been used by sharpshooters in the Federal Army. Some of them weighed as much as 40 lbs.

Dug battlefield relic bullets don't generally represent what was used by civilians. However, some of the bullets dug at a battle site could be in fact relics from an earlier date or a later date. I've dug items, including bullets from a battlefield that definitely Post War. Also, especially in the Western Theater (Western VA, East TN &c) many troops took their civilian guns to war and used their round balls, picket balls and whatever they could conjure up a mold for. McKee & Mason's book has one type found in north Georgia for a country rifle that even they couldn't perfectly identify though they believed it to be Confederate. It's been found in at least 20 calibers ranging from .34 to .64. Molds have been found with some of them.

Although some Federal soldiers were able to buy their weapons after the War, most of the guns not destroyed in battle or while in storage were stored in northern arsenals and sold at auction in huge quantities to speculators who in turn sold them overseas. Of course, some went home as trophies I suppose and some were picked up from battlefields after the armies moved on and the salvage teams missed them. Like you said, many were bored out smooth and made into shotguns. You don't read many accounts of people using surplus muskets after the War, at least here in the east. All you hear about is the old "Kentucky" or hog rifle.

 

[tg]

"The Lyman 575213 Old Style mold is about as close as I've seen th matching the originals that we are all familiar with. Of course, there were many styles used. This style was probably the most common, especially with Federal troops"

Given all the original styles(civilian and military) that would be available to re-create for todays hunters/shooters why have the manufactures all gone to designing their own style and not reproducing the originals? This has always puzzled me,I supect tha with todays tech. they can make them "better" than the originals?

 

[Tumblernotch]

I don't know, except maybe they're trying to do what all the different designers were doing back then..."building a better mousetrap?" Trying to improve on a proven product? I think that we as shooters do the same thing, trying to improve our weapons and ammo as well as techniques, only to find that in most cases that the old tried and true ways are the best.

I don't have any of the molds, but the newer design wadcutter and semi-wadcutter "minies" have been popular for target shooting with lighter charges. I have to say that they make scoring easier due to punching a neater hole in the paper. I have an old Lee aluminum mold for the 505 gr. Minie and those bullets probably were the best for my Richmond, but that mold is so badly worn and has been re-worked so many times, I have way more rejects than good rounds. I turned a new baseplug for my Lyman that reduced its weight from 485 to 420 grs. with a thinner skirt for light charges, but have found that I'm better off with the original baseplug. I guess things haven't changed. We think we can make it better. In my case, on a rare occasion I can do something that's an improvement for me, such as jag designs. But usually my brainstorms end up as a soiled note tossed in the trash or a corner of a toolbox.

I've noticed in many of the threads we've had concerning improving ballistics on the rifle-musket and the expanding ball, some shooters have asked how they can get blistering velocities, flat trajectories and massive terminal impact. The answer is: We can't. We have to realize the original use of these guns and their limitations. They are superb killing machines...against men. They will kill deer and other large game, I've done it myself. But with this rifle's low velocity, a deer can move enough when the trigger is pulled to only be wounded or missed entirely by a shooter only a little more than 100 yds. away. They're designed for use against troops in line of battle although they are great for individual targets. Soldiers in this situation cannot duck or dodge or spook when they see the smoke. (Although I have read somewhere that a battleline was spared heavy casualties because they marched into a swale just as the other side fired a volley. The balls passed just over their heads.) We can speed up the bullet by using a lighter weight bullet and using more and finer powder, but that's about it. Raise the velocity too much and the bullet is guaranteed to strip through the rifling and at the same time get a deformed or partially melted skirt. Either way you get a keyhole.

I don't know. I believe the rifle-muskets of the Civil War were the peak of the minie rifle design. The British War Department wanted a rifle that would outrange the P-53 and engaged Joseph Whitworth to come up with something. They stipulated that the bullet weight and the powder charge had to be the same as that used in the service rifle (P-53). This weapon we all have come to know and love as the .451 Whitworth. So, in order to improve the muzzleloading rifle-musket, it had to re-designed as a smallbore rifle using a much longer bullet and a rate of twist almost 4 times as fast.

As far as accuracy, sure we can improve them some by tweaking the loads and changing sights, but I don't think there's much can be done to speed them up. Nor do I want to, myself.

Sorry this was so long tg. You oughta know by now how windy I can be. :grin:

 

[tg]

Good info and I appreciate it, most folks think I am anti conical which is not the case just anti modern connical, that is why I wish there were more traditional designs for conical users to shoot, and experience the traditional aspect of using conicals, I think you pretty well summed it up in mentioning what the originals were made for vs what they are used for today, not trying to stir the pot but all things considered the modern designs can hardly be considered traditional, but likely are needed for hunting as many of the originals may have fallen short here, except for the ones used in Buffalo guns or long range target shooting, This thread certainly gives the conical shooters a lot to look at and think about comparatively speaking.

 

[jdstrang]

KanawhaRanger:

It may have been a long wind, but it blew good! :bow:

A Minie/Burton rifle is, as they say nowadays, what it is: the peak of mid-19th Century technology, a window that already was closing as the Civil War was beginning. Accept its limitations, learn its ways, appreciate its considerable capabilities -- or find another smokepole.

 

[ravenousfishing]

With my original post, I had hoped to drum up some info on modern copies of actual historical bullets, but alas, with the exception of a few civil war styles, it appears they have have not survived the sands of time. On the other hand, my interest in Civil War arms has been rekindled. After all, they were what originally got me interested in black powder shooting. Overall there has been quite a bit of good info here.

 

[Tumblernotch]

"Accept its limitations, learn its ways, appreciate its considerable capabilities -- or find another smokepole."

No truer words have been spoken. I can tell you one thing, them things have definitely shown me my limitations! Original sights and aging eyes do not a great score make! But ain't they a hoot to shoot! :grin:

By the way, as I was re-reading all these posts, I noticed that I wrote in one that we couldn't get blistering velocities, flat trajectories and massive terminal impacts. As for the first two I'm probably right. On the last, those muskets already have a massive and very terminal impact. So I have to retract part of that statement. You can't get much more destructive results than this with a small arm.
:wink:

 

[Tumblernotch]

My interest in the Civil War since grade school got me interested in the weapons and by the time I was 15 I owned my first one. I used them in reenacting for 20 years and have shot live ammo for over 34. I still love shooting them, looking at them and just reading about them. (As well as all the other traditional ML's).

I'll keep my eyes open for any modern molds that may be out there copying a traditional non-minie conical. (Always looking for molds!)

 

[Stumpkiller]

On an interesting and related note: Stonewall Jackson was mortally wounded with a round ball from a smoothbore musket at Chancellorsville in 1863.
http://americancivilwar.com/south/stonewall_jackson_death.html