Historical question regarding combat with muzzleloading rifles

[jan_buchwald]

Just got the book: "Johann Ewald, Jäger Commander", by James R Mc Intyre (ISBN 978-1-94849-606-3) . Officer in a Hessian Jäger corps. Fought on the British side alongside Hessian grenadiers. The Jägers were armed with rifles, and highly professional.

 

[Nazgul58]

Read Lawrence E. Babits "A Devil of a Whipping, The Battle of Cowpens" for a detailed look at the use of rifles in the Revolutionary War. It is a complex issue, they were very effective when used within their capabilities. The American Militia broke up and harassed the British formations with accurate long range rifle fire.
Muskets fired by the infantry on line was effective also when used correctly. Babits also points out many reasons why the militia fought the way they did. Most was from experience fighting Indians which was short skirmishes and then run and regroup. In a pitched battle this was not good if the enemy followed up on their retreat correctly.

Don

 

[FlinterNick]

Just got the book: "Johann Ewald, Jäger Commander", by James R Mc Intyre (ISBN 978-1-94849-606-3) . Officer in a Hessian Jäger corps. Fought on the British side alongside Hessian grenadiers. The Jägers were armed with rifles, and highly professional.

The Jaegers were exceptionally trained. The problem with the Jaegers (and British rifle units) was that the procedures that they employed in the field tended to be time consuming And out of touch with the tactics in the American War. Americans simply had no procedures, And relied upon their own personalized skills. This was a major blunder by the British too, as they had experienced first hand on various occasions in the F&I War and early American conflicts in the Carolinas what American frontiersmen were capable of.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I’m going to beat a dead horse here, but I believe that many people are misinformed about the American Revolution.

They seem to think that the Patriots had rifles using cover and concealment while the British used smoothbores, and linear tactics.

Also flagellating a deceased equine, American Loyalists were patriots too. Fighting for their King and Country as they saw it.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

Also flagellating a deceased equine, American Loyalists were patriots too. Fighting for their King and Country as they saw it.

Absolutely, let’s not forget the adage “One man’s hero, is another man’s traitor.”

 

[Rangefogger]

Many of us buy our material and cut our own patches; cheaper than buying flimsy patches already lubed. Liquid lubes do the best job of keeping the bore cleaned and allowing many shots without cleaning. Hoppes #9 BP Lube is one of the best and is my favorite. Spit does a great job as well. Mink oil is my hunting lube as it doesn't rust the bore. The remainder of the shooting I do is with Hoppes more often than not.

Riflemen in AWI likely used spit in battle and may have kept a supply of smaller diameter balls in case the bore became overly fouled. They were the snipers and sharpshooters and learned their skills from the Indians. Concealment and movement was the key to survival for them.

Where do you get your mink oil? And what Lube does rust the barrel other than spit?

 

[hanshi]

The pure mink oil I use comes from Track of the Wolf. Any lube that contains water has the potential of causing rust if left in the bore for extended - or not so extended - periods. Hoppes #9 BP Lube seems to be okay for a day or so, maybe longer. Not sure but it may contain water in the formulation. Mink oil does no damage to the bore.

 

[tenngun]

Also flagellating a deceased equine, American Loyalists were patriots too. Fighting for their King and Country as they saw it.

We praise the reformed criminal, the heroes that turn their life around.
Arnold was loyal to the new nation, until the politics of his time screwed him. So he returned to his former patriotism. His reward was hate and distrust by his new old friends.

 

[Grenadier1758]

And still, when we look at the historical record, Arnold's defense of the northern American Campaign and defeat of the British Armies is one of the reasons that the American Colonial Revolution succeeded.

 

[Riverbravo]

A big thank you to those who took the time to type out all that interesting information. I learned quite a bit. I didn't realize were rifled muskets. I also changed what I do during loading and had a much easier time of loading today.

 

[Riverbravo]

What is PRB?

Patched round ball I believe.

 

[tenngun]

A big thank you to those who took the time to type out all that interesting information. I learned quite a bit. I didn't realize were rifled muskets. I also changed what I do during loading and had a much easier time of loading today.

If your new to the sport my number one advice is go slow. Speed is the device of Satan.
a modern gun can be like a cheap whisky, just toss it back. A ml is a hundred year old Brandy. Its sipped slow and enjoyed.
No Brit is going to give you a yard of steel if you don’t get your second shot off fast, no Grizz is going to enjoy Riverbravo tartare if you don’t get off a second shot.
If it takes three,four even five minutes between shots it is ok.
Even hunting its ten minutes at least before I leave my spot to go look for the downed game, and probably closer to twenty then ten.
A whole range day might be ten or twenty shots for me.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

If your new to the sport my number one advice is go slow. Speed is the device of Satan.
a modern gun can be like a cheap whisky, just toss it back. A ml is a hundred year old Brandy. Its sipped slow and enjoyed.
No Brit is going to give you a yard of steel if you don’t get your second shot off fast, no Grizz is going to enjoy Riverbravo tartare if you don’t get off a second shot.
If it takes three,four even five minutes between shots it is ok.
Even hunting its ten minutes at least before I leave my spot to go look for the downed game, and probably closer to twenty then ten.
A whole range day might be ten or twenty shots for me.

A big thank you to those who took the time to type out all that interesting information. I learned quite a bit. I didn't realize were rifled muskets. I also changed what I do during loading and had a much easier time of loading today.

I second that. Thank you all for the valuable information.

 

[Kyle Kalasnik]

If your new to the sport my number one advice is go slow. Speed is the device of Satan.
a modern gun can be like a cheap whisky, just toss it back. A ml is a hundred year old Brandy. Its sipped slow and enjoyed.
No Brit is going to give you a yard of steel if you don’t get your second shot off fast, no Grizz is going to enjoy Riverbravo tartare if you don’t get off a second shot.
If it takes three,four even five minutes between shots it is ok.
Even hunting its ten minutes at least before I leave my spot to go look for the downed game, and probably closer to twenty then ten.
A whole range day might be ten or twenty shots for me.

Appreciate the advice. Thank you.

 

[FlinterNick]

We praise the reformed criminal, the heroes that turn their life around.
Arnold was loyal to the new nation, until the politics of his time screwed him. So he returned to his former patriotism. His reward was hate and distrust by his new old friends.

Arnold was foolish, we look at him today envious of his bravery in battle and forgiving of his transgressions. However.

Arnold from Day 1 in the camp-gain against Quebec was accused of profiteering, and miss use. His peers and subordinates and insubordiantes simply didn’t trust him, he consistently played the role of the mercenary and did so under a Red Coat.

He continuously sabotaged his own promotions by pissing off the wrong people, he floundered in his own defense of his misdeeds and was still considered one of the best in the continental army and Washington still trusted him, he could have stayed the course and eventually been a founding father, instead he opted for coin.

one argument i never agreed with was him being given Credit at Saratoga, 1. He was a subordinate to Gates and the others, the credit of the day goes to the leading major general, not the subordinate. Arnold got credit for his actions, he just didn’t get all of the credit which was another issue with Arnold, he suffered from a flawed personality Simply put he was an annoying jerk.

The biggest mistake that Washington made with Arnold was giving him Philadelphia as a command, Arnold in absolute power With control of commerce was an absolutely terrible choice. Arnold should have been in the field at Monmouth with Washington’s rear guard And then camped at Morristown.

 

[kje54]

Even with the improver range and accuracy of the rifled musket much of the fighting during the WBTS took place at smoothbore range. Wilson Creek, Pea Ridge and Prairie Grove are good examples of close by fighting. Shiloh had its long open field before the sunken road, but much of the fighting there was in the woods. chanchcellyrsville and Wilderness also had mostly close by fighting. Gettysburg had its long open lands to cross, but the ‘whirlpool’ was in wooded land. The Wheat-field and Devils den along with the flank of little round top was fought also in smoothbore range.
While the deadly ground of Fredericksburg or the Richmond defensive line the rifle could really show off much of the fight then the rifle held no special advantage.

Eons ago I read there were a few Union Regiments that continued to carry .69 Cal smoothbores throughout the entire war as most of the fighting occurred within 100 yards of each other and they could load buck and ball. Wish I could remember which resource I found it in, maybe someone else knows.

 

[tenngun]

‘These are the times that try means souls’.
Had things worked out a little different, for all his flaws he would have been a founding father. Now she is tainted in history.
But great men oftenhave flaws, just the circumstances didn’t expose them.
Arnold made bad choices. I’m not excusing him. Only recognize heroes often amount to matters of timing and have a lucky bet.

 

[FlinterNick]

‘These are the times that try means souls’.
Had things worked out a little different, for all his flaws he would have been a founding father. Now she is tainted in history.
But great men oftenhave flaws, just the circumstances didn’t expose them.
Arnold made bad choices. I’m not excusing him. Only recognize heroes often amount to matters of timing and have a lucky bet.

The fact that Arnold requested a command in the British army to make War on his own kind, blunts his accomplishments on the American side, I’ll give credit to the men in arms that fought at Quebec, Valcour Island and Saratoga. But Arnold is one figure that deserves to remain canceled. The raids on Richmond, and New London Ct and fort Griswold were of an cruel nature, its a real shame there wasn’t a riflemen good enough to take him out.

 

[tenngun]

It was the eighteenth century. Modern warfare was still a baby. And fame was more important then life.
Some years later Garnett would ride a horse in Pickett’s charge because he had a bad leg and couldn’t walk. Stuart would abandon his duties to get a coup of riding around the Union army.
Fortune and glory said Indiana Jones, and at this time it was still a mantra; ‘Here’s to a bloody war or a sickly season’.
Men killed each other over petty remarks.
Washington wanted a military career, it was denied him because he was a colonial. How much of he willingness to fight based on a dedication to the principles of the Declaration of Independence and how much was it to prove to the Brits a colonial was their equal.
Was Jones a patriot or a guy who wanted to command a fighting ship? He would leave the United States for Russia when the navy was disbanded.
Lafayette was dedicated to the principles of liberty, both here and back in France for that brief time the the French Revolution believed in liberty. But how many of the European general that came to America cared for the cause, and would sell their services to the highest bidder?
Was Lee a greater traitor to Washington and the American cause then Arnold?
Arnold bought him self a seat at Judus’ table, and there he will remain, but I wonder how many would join him for a glass of gall had the cards fallen a little different

 

[Rató:rats]

I’m not sure if it’s as black and white as to say Arnold made war on his own kind. He was born a British citizen in a British colony. As for Washington he took the oath to the King in the militia, probably more than once, but disregarded that oath later when it suited him. Yet he’s not remembered as an oath-breaking traitor, probably because he won.