History of LARGE bore flintlocks?

Hi Guys,

I have an 8 bore Jaeger on its way to me and I want to know where and when if ever where these used? I know Africa of course but what time period? If I am going to get this on a show I want to make sure I have some answers in case I am asked the question.

Thanks for any help in my research!

Billy

 

[wallgunner]

If your in the lower Hudson valley, go to West Point museum. In it, they used to have a 4 bore, wheellock rife. I don't know if it's on display still. Go to there website and ask about it. The arms curator is a nice guy, and very helpful. They might even let you come down and view it personally. I have no idea what it was used for. It wasn't a rampart musket, it's size was more like a standard arm, not a wallgun. I belive it was German in origin.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Guys,

I have an 8 bore Jaeger on its way to me and I want to know where and when if ever where these used? I know Africa of course but what time period? If I am going to get this on a show I want to make sure I have some answers in case I am asked the question.

Thanks for any help in my research!

Billy

How long is the barrel and what is the weight?

 

[Story]

Can you post pics?

 

can do! FYI this is a replica not an original.

Left to right, custom conical maker made up for water buffalo, .820 round ball, .54 round ball.

 

[chuckpa]

What kind of a powder charge do you put in that cannon?

 

I'll be getting a full care and feeding manual when it gets here. I think 200 grains 2ffg Swiss for plinking.

 

[roundball]

You might need a muzzle brake like this big bore has...

 

Now thats a ground fired bacon maker! Mine is shoulder fired only. LOL

Hey Roundball my barrel came today as well as my L&R replacement flint lock. I stripped the barrel and am searching for Rayl's contact info. Shoot me an email when you get the chance. May barrel is ready to go and I'd like to chat with him first.

Thanks!

Billy

 

[chuckpa]

Rayl's phone # is 304-364-826I just had him barrel a Indian Baker for me and his work is wonderful. The rifle really shoots. He targeted the rifle before he sent it to me.

 

[chuckpa]

uh Ho made a mistake on that phone # 304-364-8269

 

[cas]

Hmmm.... for years I've said I wanted to make a big bore rifle that would shoot patched golf balls. Never seem to remember to weigh one so I could calculate recoil.

 

[roundball]

"...Hey Roundball my barrel came today as well as my L&R replacement flint lock. I stripped the barrel and am searching for Rayl's contact info..."

W. E. Rayl, Inc.
18 Otter Lane
Gassaway, West VA, 26624
304-364-8269

 

Thanks guys, probably too late to call now, will do it in the morning and hopefully ship my barrel out right after I get off the phone with him. Will get it labeled now and ready to go.

Billy

 

[Wes/Tex]

Back to your original question, the largest sizes of Jaegers were designed to hunt big critters that bite back. Even in central Europe, there were large boars and bears to be hunted til very recent times. Another use was when hunting in mountainous areas where if the animal didn't go down immediately it might take quite a while to get to where the animal ended up sliding or dropping down to. Some German and Swiss versions had very short barrels for mountain hunting. Big balls don't require really high speed to be effective.

 

[Dphar]

I'll be getting a full care and feeding manual when it gets here. I think 200 grains 2ffg Swiss for plinking.

Historically conicals were proven to be largely useless for heavy game. They are actually less effective than roundballs in the bigger "bore" rifles unless of similar weight and at least as blunt as a RB due to drastic reductions in velocity if the weight is increased. In RB twists there is the likelyhood that they will fail to track straight after stiking an animal especially bone of any kind, they tend to veer off course and miss the vitals the hunter is shooting for. Forsythe in "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" was very vocal concerning this.
If you read some of Sir Samual Baker's writings you will find this as well. His 4 bore became danergous for elephant shooting when he used a conical he had made up for it. With a round ball he called this rifle his "devil stopper" with the conical he was nearly killed and stopped using the conical for this reason.
The ball must be hardened for heavy game at least wheel weight alloy better if harder.
In the 1930s John Taylor in "Pondoro" stated he killed 8 Rhino and 13 "good bulls" elephant with a 10 bore smooth ML using hardened balls when his shipment of ammunition was mislaid. He was using 6 dr of powder. He used lung shots, killed all he shot with one shot. He used it till the balls ran out. But it kept him eating until his ammo arrived.
Recently someone took a pair of new made 8 bores to Africa and had excellent results on Cape Buffalo. SFAIK he used the hardened RB.
If you go to[url] nitroexpress.com[/url] then forums then ML and BP. Several people there with "bore" size MLs they use for hunting. Most "bore size" cartridge rifles shot short "bullets" little heavier than RBs for the bore size as well.[url] http://www.african-hunter.com/4-bore_part_i.htm http://www.african-hunter.com/4-bore_part_ii.htm[/url]

Dan

 

[Stophel]

The largest 18th century German rifle I have seen (in photos) is a neat North German gun ca. 1740 intended for bear hunting. It is .73. I THINK I have seen one elsewhere that is supposed to be about .80... Both of these are the rarity, as the VAST majority of German rifles are of the .55-.65 caliber range.

No elephants in the Schwarzwald. :grin:

I think the really huge rifles were something primarily used by English military officers and explorers in 19th century Africa.

 

[Okwaho]

Chris is right here and I defer to him as regards German rifles both smooth as well as rifled.I think the same bore ratios apply to early American rifles as well both smooth and rifled.
Tom Patton

 

[Dphar]

The largest 18th century German rifle I have seen (in photos) is a neat North German gun ca. 1740 intended for bear hunting. It is .73. I THINK I have seen one elsewhere that is supposed to be about .80... Both of these are the rarity, as the VAST majority of German rifles are of the .55-.65 caliber range.

No elephants in the Schwarzwald. :grin:

I think the really huge rifles were something primarily used by English military officers and explorers in 19th century Africa.

Rifles or even smoothbores over 10 bore are relatively rare anywhere. The 8 and 4 bore shoulder fired guns were mostly used for mega game like Indian/African Elephant. They tended to weigh 20 pounds plus for a 4 bore. 8 bores were lighter, probably 15 pounds or more. 10 and 12 bores (75 to 69 caliber) were more common and apparently worked OK especially in India where the big stuff was smaller, but it would be difficult to stop a charge with anything less than an 8. But the lighter bores would work for most dangerous game and were easier to handle and could be shot from horse back making elephant hunting in open areas less "stressful".
The only exception to the 10 bore rule would be market hunters supplying waterfowl when this was legal. Some of the 4 bore smooth bores used for African elephant were actually originally made for this and had the barrels bobbed to use for hunting elephant.
The English were almost completely mentally incapable of making a patched ball rifle with a really usable twist if the bore was over about 32 to the pound, as a result the rifles were drastically over twisted (1 full turn in the barrel and most were under 32" long) so most heavy game hunters shot smoothbores or belted ball guns. Forsythe advocated 8 to 10 ft twists for rifles of 16-14 bore (used balls around .68-.655"). Forsythe stated that his 14 bore rifle with a hardened 15 ga. ball would shoot through an Indian Elephant's head from side to side with 5 dr of powder. So IMO rifles over 16 bore were over kill for European use if they used 4-5 dr of powder.
Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

For those not familiar with Drams, a Dram of black powder weighs 27.5 grains. 2 drams is 55 grains. 4 drams would be 110 grains. 5 drams is 147.5 grains, and 6 drams is 165 grains of powder!

Just to keep a sense of proportion, the largest round every made and chambered by after market gunsmiths for the Sharps rifle was the .50-140-550. That load will completely penetrate a full grown, American buffalo, and kill another buffalo standing on the other side of it.

So, a 16 gauge hardened Round Ball( .662 diameter) pushed out by 147.5 grains of BP will completely penetrate an elephant's skull. YOu are not undergunned when carrying a .20 ga. smoothie, and hunting any N. American game. You may want a second shot, if you can't place the first one well, but you are not undergunned.