History of the Indian Trade Gun

[Doc Ivory]

I'm interested in reading about the variations of the Indian Trade gun, particularly the Northwest version.
The builders, the history, etc.
What the stock was generally made from.
Were the barrels typically browned, blued or left in the white.
Typical calibers or gauges.
Oddities.
Well, you get the idea.

Any books you might recommend.
I'm thinking about contacting the National Museum of American History for info as well.

 

[chuck-ia]

For trade and treaty, trade guns of the hudsons bay company, 1670-1970

 

[plmeek]

chuck-ia is referring to two books:

For Trade and Treaty by Ryan Gale, and

Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company, 1670-1970 by S James Gooding, which appears to be out of print and may not be available

Another reference, though a bit dated, is also out of print but may be found on eBay

The Northwest Gun by Charles E. Hanson, Jr.

The best book on the subject is a bit pricey, but if you get it, you won't need the other out of print books.

Firearms of the Fur Trade by James A. Hanson

If you contact any museum, it should be the Museum of The Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraska. They have the largest collection of Northwest and other trades guns in the world.

 

[Doc Ivory]

Thanks for the heads up about the museum and the books.
I appreciate it.

 

[Doc Ivory]

That museum out there in Nebraska is on my list now.
Thanks for pointing me toward it, I'm sure it will help me with my research.
Let's hope this COVID manure ceases to exist soon so I can begin planning a trip.

 

[Tom Compton]

Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming is another good ‘un

 

[Doc Ivory]

That museum out there in Nebraska is on my list now.
Thanks for pointing me toward it, I'm sure it will help me with my research.
Let's hope this COVID manure ceases to exist soon so I can begin planning a trip.

Thanks Tom!

 

[justjake]

"Success in The North American Fur Trade" is a collection of company records, reviews, and thoughts on the subject along with the history of the Northwest Trade Gun. Now listed in the "US Library of Congress" as a research book for students of the fur trade. Most of my work involves research (documented) on the wares used with in the borders of North America, found in museums and private collections. Publishing date 2005 Macon, Georgia Blanket Series Books by Barry 'Buck' Conner

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/success-in-the-north-american-fur-trade.16073/

 

[Notchy Bob]

Doc Ivory,

The books mentioned and listed in posts #2 and #3 above are all good references. I believe I can add a little to the list, though.

I think it is safe to say that trade guns in North America were intended primarily for distribution to the native people. In learning about the guns, it's good to learn how they were accepted and used by, and how they affected native people. With this in mind, another book I would strongly recommend is Gifts from the Thunder Beings, by Roland Bohr:

You did say you were most interested in Northwest Guns, but in considering these, it is also good to think about their antecedents. For an excellent and scholarly treatment of earlier trade guns, especially those from France and Britain, it is hard to beat T.M. Hamilton's Colonial Frontier Guns. The title is somewhat misleading. This book is about trade guns.

The journals of the American Society of Arms Collectors (ASAC) are a trove of information. Lee Burke wrote an excellent monograph on early English trade guns, or "Carolina Guns." These were the direct ancestors of Northwest guns. Here is a link to the article: Carolina Guns

Charles Hanson (author of The Northwest Gun, mentioned in post #3) wrote a fine monograph on Northwest guns for the same journal: Indian Trade Guns

Hanson's article gives a very neat and concise history of these weapons.

There are a couple of additional articles that should be of interest, in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting. These are unfortunately not available online, but you can get old-fashioned print copies from Joe Salter Antiques. I would recommend that you consider Trade Guns of the Northwest Company, by Gordon T. Howard (CJAC Vol. 2, #3, pp. 65-74) and Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company, by James Gooding (CJAC Vol. 13, #3, pp. 75-91). Those two probably have the most information about Northwest guns, but you might augment your collection with Russel Bouchard's The Trade Gun in New France, 1690-1760 (CJAC Vol.15, #1, pp. 3-12) and James D. Forman's Guns of the American Indians (CJAC Vol. 11, #4, pp. 105-116). I think Joe Salter Antiques has probably acquired all remaining stocks of the CJAC, and most issues sell for $5.00 each. Here is a link: Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting

There are plenty of other references out there, but these ought to get you started. The links to the American Society of Arms Collectors journals online will take you to articles you can start reading immediately. I think you're on the right track, researching the guns that interest you. You will be a better informed customer when you order parts, a kit, or a finished gun. I believe you will be happiest with it if you have a gun that is as authentic as possible.

Good luck to you!

Notchy Bob

 

[Doc Ivory]

Excellent Bob!
I was looking into Colonial forearms as precursors to Indian Trade rifles and you suggestions will help tremendously.
Over the years I've gotten SO dang involved in research and now in retirement, it's gotten worse.

You've given me more fodder and more to spend a few bucks on!
Heading out to look for the "Colonial Frontier Guns book now!

Thanks,
-JIm

 

[pab1]

Doc Ivory,

The books mentioned and listed in posts #2 and #3 above are all good references. I believe I can add a little to the list, though.

I think it is safe to say that trade guns in North America were intended primarily for distribution to the native people. In learning about the guns, it's good to learn how they were accepted and used by, and how they affected native people. With this in mind, another book I would strongly recommend is Gifts from the Thunder Beings, by Roland Bohr:

View attachment 38399

You did say you were most interested in Northwest Guns, but in considering these, it is also good to think about their antecedents. For an excellent and scholarly treatment of earlier trade guns, especially those from France and Britain, it is hard to beat T.M. Hamilton's Colonial Frontier Guns. The title is somewhat misleading. This book is about trade guns.

The journals of the American Society of Arms Collectors (ASAC) are a trove of information. Lee Burke wrote an excellent monograph on early English trade guns, or "Carolina Guns." These were the direct ancestors of Northwest guns. Here is a link to the article: Carolina Guns

Charles Hanson (author of The Northwest Gun, mentioned in post #3) wrote a fine monograph on Northwest guns for the same journal: Indian Trade Guns

Hanson's article gives a very neat and concise history of these weapons.

There are a couple of additional articles that should be of interest, in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting. These are unfortunately not available online, but you can get old-fashioned print copies from Joe Salter Antiques. I would recommend that you consider Trade Guns of the Northwest Company, by Gordon T. Howard (CJAC Vol. 2, #3, pp. 65-74) and Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company, by James Gooding (CJAC Vol. 13, #3, pp. 75-91). Those two probably have the most information about Northwest guns, but you might augment your collection with Russel Bouchard's The Trade Gun in New France, 1690-1760 (CJAC Vol.15, #1, pp. 3-12) and James D. Forman's Guns of the American Indians (CJAC Vol. 11, #4, pp. 105-116). I think Joe Salter Antiques has probably acquired all remaining stocks of the CJAC, and most issues sell for $5.00 each. Here is a link: Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting

There are plenty of other references out there, but these ought to get you started. The links to the American Society of Arms Collectors journals online will take you to articles you can start reading immediately. I think you're on the right track, researching the guns that interest you. You will be a better informed customer when you order parts, a kit, or a finished gun. I believe you will be happiest with it if you have a gun that is as authentic as possible.

Good luck to you!

Notchy Bob

Good info @Notchy Bob!

It looks like this book has become pretty scarce but it has a lot of good info. It was published by Pioneer Press in 1982. There are 9 contributors to the book including Mr. Hanson. Its 258 pages total packed with great information.

One of the most interesting things in the book (at least to me) was a breakdown of bore diameters from 111 recovered barrels (fragments) from four Osage village sites (pg 97). 30% of the guns were .50 and 30% were .55 caliber. 6.3% were .58 caliber and 10% were .62 caliber. Five of the guns (4.6%) measured .44 caliber. They don't fill in the remaining numbers in the book.

The smaller bore diameters are surprising. The authors felt that since such small bores are not mentioned in trade guns of the 19th century, they are likely from the 18th century. They feel they were probably French guns made before 1775.

 

[Notchy Bob]

pab1 is spot on! That book, Indian Trade Guns, by T.M. Hamilton, is a masterpiece of scholarly research on the topic under discussion. I handled a heavily shopworn copy of this book in a museum "gift shop" some years ago and determined to order a new copy as soon as I got home, only to find it was out of print. We didn't have the online used book resources then that are available now, and I regretted passing on the opportunity to buy that copy when I had the chance. After this reminder, I'll look again.

I was not aware of that comparison of bore sizes. That is a very important consideration to anyone thinking of getting an authentically constructed modern-made trade gun.

I agree with pab1, this book is highly recommended. Pioneer Press really ought to bring it back into print.

Notchy Bob

 

[Doc Ivory]

Looks like another purchase for me, thanks!
Now, to hunt one down.

 

[Doc Ivory]

GOT ONE!
I use Abebooks.com to find rarities.
The prices are fair, not great but they more often than not, have them.


!!

 

[pab1]

Great find @Doc Ivory! You won't regret it!

 

[Doc Ivory]

Thanks Pab1!
I have a growing collection of books and reference material for Trade Guns.
I'll have to see what restrictions/expense I might need to over come to digitize it all and make it available to the group someday