Hook Breech and Patent Breech

[JHSA-President]

Hi all - New member on this site. I see references to hook breech and patent breech...I was looking at the Pedersoli Hawken Hunter and some people were raising the issue that it is not a "hook" breech... What difference does that make and how should it impact the what gun I am thinking of getting. I want a fast twist barrel and the pickins' are slim.

 

[bubba.50]

With a hook breech you can remove the barrel from the stock to make cleaning faster/easier. Not that much harder to clean a fixed barrel gun but you do need a different technique and to take more care.

 

[Black Powder Guy]

A patent breech is the breech end of the bore is smaller than the rest of the bore. The size of the patent is about the size of a .22 gun bore and about a half inch long.

 

[JHSA-President]

A patent breech is the breech end of the bore is smaller than the rest of the bore. The size of the patent is about the size of a .22 gun bore and about a half inch long.

And this presents a problem in some way? Not being facetious...what is the problem with that...I assume that if you run water through the bore, flash hole and nipple all is fine?

 

[bubba.50]

And this presents a problem in some way? Not being facetious...what is the problem with that...I assume that if you run water through the bore, flash hole and nipple all is fine?

Smaller holes/chambers are easier to foul/clog. But, as you say, with proper cleaning it’s no problem at all.

 

[necchi]

Your question is "framed" a little bit wrong,
A "Hooked" breech is a method of installation/removal of the barrel, versus a "Straight/Solid tang" breech.
With a hooked breech the tang is a separate piece mounted to the rifle allowing the barrel to be removed alone.
A solid tang is actually part of the barrel and needs to be removed with it.
Along with those types is the way the barrel is installed in the stock. A hooked breech is usually used with wedge keys that hold the barrel in the fore-end for easy removal,
,while straight tangs are usually "pinned" into the stock, making barrel removal a lot more involved.
Don't fret, staight tang rifles have been being cleaned just fine for centuries while still installed on the gun, it's just a different yet simple method to accomplish the same results.
Both can either be a "Patent" chamber breech or a direct channel breech.
In another topic member @Idaholewis shares cut-away photos of a "hooked patent" breech;
Patent Breech trouble.

 

[Rudyard]

The hook breach might have a' common' flat faced plug, or a variety of 'Patent' configurations , The classic being Nocks being like other varients have an anti chamber and made as a separate plug . Though there where various' Chamber 'plugs essencially a long common plug with a reduced bored interier .
This plan was in an old gun I had and to speed it up I would prime with fine powder then load with the courser charge . But one day decoying wood pigeons I fired at one and the shot just managed to clear the gun as I had ommitted the main charge .
The 'Hook breach' has no ones 'Patent 'being around since the early /mid 18th c if only on sporting guns and if some one finds an earlier example good on them but in general my observations are correct I believe.
Rudyard

 

[hawkeye2]

Summary; A patent breech may or may not be a hook breach. A hook breach may or may not be a patent breach.

 

[JHSA-President]

Summary II: in a patent breech gun a small bowl like area smaller than the diameter of the bore exists which in theory gets some of the powder closer to the ignition source for faster ignition. Because it is smaller than the bore the full size cleaning jags don’t get there and the risk of the accumulation of fouling is greater thereby in theory actually causing an ignition problem. If you don’t wash the barrel by pumping water through the barrel you may have a problem. If you do, and if you run a jag that is small enough to get into the patent breech area, you will likely not have a problem. That about sum it up?

 

[JHSA-President]

Now then…to my real question- should I hesitate to buy a Pedersoli hawken hunter!?

 

[Idaho Ron]

Now then…to my real question- should I hesitate to buy a Pedersoli hawken hunter!?

I would not own one, but I don't like guns with a drum. I have read way to many incidents of the drum blowing out. I shoot big bullets. The increased pressure those big bulls create are not going to help a drum stay in.
That rifle is a fast twist for conicals. If it were me I would get the Missouri River Hawken.

 

[JHSA-President]

I would not own one, but I don't like guns with a drum. I have read way to many incidents of the drum blowing out. I shoot big bullets. The increased pressure those big bulls create are not going to help a drum stay in.
That rifle is a fast twist for conicals. If it were me I would get the Missouri River Hawken.

Newby question: Drum? What’s the drum? The pipe piece that the Nipple sits over? What is the alternative?

 

[Old Hawkeye]

A hooked breech relates to how the barrel is attached to the tang which stays in the stock. A patent breech describes the INTERNAL geometry of the breech. They are two entirely different things. Google hooked breech & patent breech & it will become obvious. Asking here will only confuse you more than you already are. You are imagining problems with time proven breeches & ignition systems & "hesitating" about buying a time proven rifle design that thousands, if not millions, of people have used for nearly two hundred years. Relax! There are no "problems" with either a hooked breech or a patent breech. People here tend to make mountains out of molehills & confuse people new to the hobby. The Pedersoli Hawken is a fine production rifle & I wouldn't hesitate if that's what appeals to your desires. While I was typing I see where someone now as tried to scare you about the nipple drum. Hogwash! By the time these guys get done with their "advice" you will be scared to buy anything. Dive in an enjoy!

 

[hanshi]

If you like the rifle go ahead and get it. Pedersoli makes about the best factory MLs you can fine.

Reread Necchi's and hawkeye2's posts.

 

[hawkeye2]

A patent breech, also sometimes called a chambered breech, was originally a small antechamber and the powder in that would be ignited first causing a jet of burning powder to ignite the main charge providing better ignition and a more complete burn as well as higher velocity in theory. This same idea is also used in some internal combustion engines. Patent breeches can also be found shaped like bowls or the inside of shot glasses. I have no idea when this began but it seems to be very common today. My wife has a Numrich barrel on her .58 cal. 63 which takes a .270 wire brush to clean if needed. The gun will run 50 rounds with no attention to the breech and may go more but we have never tried it. I shot a Numrich barrel for a few years too and never had an issue.

 

[52Bore]

Here’s a photo of the breech design of a mid-1800’s Boss shotgun SxS.
Note the Patent breech plugs along with the hook breech design.
Imagine no hooks and an intergal tang for just the Patent Breech.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Newby question: Drum? What’s the drum? The pipe piece that the Nipple sits over? What is the alternative?

The bottom one is the Hawken hunter. The top picture is the Missouri River Hawken.
If what I'm saying is "hogwash" I would ask that the person that says that. Show me a picture of a long range bullet shooter that uses a drum.
Look at what the Gibbs has. Look at what the Whitworth has.
I absolutely won't stand on the lock side of a rifle being shot that has a drum.

 

[JHSA-President]

The bottom one is the Hawken hunter. The top picture is the Missouri River Hawken.
If what I'm saying is "hogwash" I would ask that the person that says that. Show me a picture of a long range bullet shooter that uses a drum.
Look at what the Gibbs has. Look at what the Whitworth has.
I absolutely won't stand on the lock side of a rifle being shot that has a drum.

In the top picture, is that piece where the hammer strikes welded into the gun instead of screwed into the gun like the drum in the bottom picture?

 

[JHSA-President]

The bottom one is the Hawken hunter. The top picture is the Missouri River Hawken.
If what I'm saying is "hogwash" I would ask that the person that says that. Show me a picture of a long range bullet shooter that uses a drum.
Look at what the Gibbs has. Look at what the Whitworth has.
I absolutely won't stand on the lock side of a rifle being shot that has a drum.

Is there a name for the configuration of the ignition apparatus in the top picture?

 

[hawkeye2]

The snail, top pic, is an integral part of the breech plug. It's a conventional percussion system with a regular percussion hammer. the tail end of the snail in the photo is over the nose of the hammer and may look like it's part of it.