How Far Can You Make Successful Kill Shots ?.

[Idaho Ron]

I don't know why guys are worried about estimating yardage. I never take a shot unless I know what the yardage is. It takes 5 to 30 years to draw some of our western hunts. Guessing on a shot is not an option.

 

[cannonball1]

Back in the 70's our state opened up a special deer season for muzzleloaders. The sport was getting popular with muzzleloader clubs springing up everywhere and along with that were annual rendezvous. Each month we would have our get-together and shoot, drag out the Dutch ovens and just BS over the fire. As the years went on, the stories got bigger. There was this one true buckskinner who I will swear even had his wife chew the leather to soften up the leather for his apparel. Anyway his stories got bigger with shooting deer at over 300 yards. You see, he could do it because he was the first in the valley to purchase a Green River Hawken, made his own Teepee and shot with the big boys in the Ultimate Premium Membership he had with a club who only accepts those who look as if they had come out of the past of an original mountain men. We were lucky to have him in our club also. It seemed as if his stories were rubbing off because others were claiming to shoot deer 250 to 300 yards. Our annual rendezvous was coming up, so I volunteered a shoot. The only thing I would tell them is that it would be called the "Long Shoot". They knew the size of the 12" center bulls eye and the 4ft X 8ft target and that was it. The range finders of today were non-existent. I measured with a tape measure the whole 300 yards. The day came, the shooters were instructed not to any divulge information to other shooters. The day had arrived and out of all of the shooters only three hit the target and two of them was on the very bottom, four feet from the bullseye. The third one who won the contest was our very own BS'er who nearly hit the bullseye. He bounced the ball off of the dirt into the target.

 

[Kmcmichael]

I have extensive experience in shooting but none with a patched round ball until 2 years ago. The wind effect is massive.
I can comment on open sights. I am NOT a proponent of aim small miss small! One should learn to focus on the front sight. The rear sight and target will be out of focus. As we age we should experiment on what makes the front sight clear even on long rifles. It will likely be 1.00X or similar.
As a “range guy” I regularly shoot my patched round balls at 100(110yards)meters. Sometimes I can get
Close to a 2“ three shot group, often I can’t. As the light dims my effective range diminishes. Gusting winds makes reading them improbable. I have never seen a deer wearing a windsock but would encourage it if they would listen.
In perfect conditions, I would say 82 yards would be my max. I would have to be at least sitting to contemplate that.
I have only killed one deer with a patched ball at 67 Yards. I

 

[Jedidiah]

I have extensive experience in shooting but none with a patched round ball until 2 years ago. The wind effect is massive.
I can comment on open sights. I am NOT a proponent of aim small miss small! One should learn to focus on the front sight. The rear sight and target will be out of focus. As we age we should experiment on what makes the front sight clear even on long rifles. It will likely be 1.00X or similar.
As a “range guy” I regularly shoot my patched round balls at 100(110yards)meters. Sometimes I can get
Close to a 2“ three shot group, often I can’t. As the light dims my effective range diminishes. Gusting winds makes reading them improbable. I have never seen a deer wearing a windsock but would encourage it if they would listen.
In perfect conditions, I would say 82 yards would be my max. I would have to be at least sitting to contemplate that.
I have only killed one deer with a patched ball at 67 Yards. I

I think you can do both. Front sight focus is good, however you can still "aim small, hit small".
“Aim small, miss small” is an instruction phrase used by people who shoot guns. It means that, when looking at a target, you should pick a smaller point to aim for within that target. In that case, if you miss, you’ll still hit the target.
IMHO

 

[cannonball1]

Probably 90% of those who participate on this forum know their guns. Of those 2% are the remainder non-participant muzzleloaders, probably 90% have no idea, how and where their guns shoot. A good share of those are out on opening day of a muzzleloader hunt with a gun that never saw daylight since last opening day of the last years hunt. They just think it is like their trusty suppository gun and that my friends is the travesty of it all.

 

[64Springer]

Suppository Gun. That sounds painful.

You are correct in much of what you laid out.

But I believe you're way off on your 90% estimate of people actually knowing their firearms inside and out. There have been questions asked on every gun forum in America that could be answered by a four year old girl who can't even spell gun. A five second search on the internet would have secured that answer. Laziness.

These people think owning a gun comes with owning a twig and berries. A rite of passage. They end up securing that rite. But refuse to secure the knowledge that must accompany that rite.

The same rite of passage extends to hunting. People think they have the right to blast away at Mother Nature's creatures without giving a single thought about those creatures. They believe it's OK to wound an animal and have it run off. Oh well. I can shoot AT another one next season.

A mindset many will never understand.

.02

 

[Idaho Ron]

I think you can do both. Front sight focus is good, however you can still "aim small, hit small".
“Aim small, miss small” is an instruction phrase used by people who shoot guns. It means that, when looking at a target, you should pick a smaller point to aim for within that target. In that case, if you miss, you’ll still hit the target.
IMHO

I don't focus on the front sight. I look at it, to make sure my level is where it should be as I am acquiring the sight picture. Once I'm on, I intensely focus on the spot I want to hit. A 1" orange dot in a target or a tuff of hair on an animal.
If I'm shooting a steel gong at 500 yards there is no way I can see the target if I'm focusing on the front sight.

 

[Jedidiah]

I don't focus on the front sight. I look at it, to make sure my level is where it should be as I am acquiring the sight picture. Once I'm on, I intensely focus on the spot I want to hit. A 1" orange dot in a target or a tuff of hair on an animal.
If I'm shooting a steel gong at 500 yards there is no way I can see the target if I'm focusing on the front sight.

I think you are correct. A person must obviously orient the front sight to the target and have it in mind when aiming, otherwise why have one, but there is more going on, and I do think, knowing where you are aiming (POA/POI) and concentrating on that, is important too!

 

[Kmcmichael]

I think you can do both. Front sight focus is good, however you can still "aim small, hit small".
“Aim small, miss small” is an instruction phrase used by people who shoot guns. It means that, when looking at a target, you should pick a smaller point to aim for within that target. In that case, if you miss, you’ll still hit the target.
IMHO

I fully understand aim small miss small. I shot a longbow for many years. It was an effective technique for that discipline. The phrase got popular after the Mel Gibson movie.
i however did instruct and oversee instruction of handguns for many years for the Federal government. Had I heard that being used and I did. The instructor would have received a brief intense lecture on the basics of marksmanship which do not include that phrase.
It removes one’s focus from the front sight. One should aim for center mass while focusing on the front sight.
I will likely never reach my goals of patched round ball shooting…unless I can find an indoor 100 meter range, but my prior experience certainly prohibits the theory of aim small miss small when used for other than instinctive archery or throwing rocks.

i totally disagree with the phrase being used in marksmanship.

 

[Loja man]

Earlier in the season I shot a doe (field conditions) at 85 yards - missed my aim point about 3”.
Later I missed a dear at about 35 yards with a nice rest in a blind. (I got a bit excited)
Today I shot this bobcat at about 50 yards in field conditions. I drilled it exactly where I was aiming.
The point is that as others have said - when you’re in the field, how excited you are, heart rate, the kind of rest - all matter.
View attachment 187800

I want to shoot a bobcat!! The onely ones around our neck of the woods belongs to the landlord. He would probably frown upon me shooting his machinery

 

[64Springer]

I fully understand aim small miss small. I shot a longbow for many years. It was an effective technique for that discipline. The phrase got popular after the Mel Gibson movie.
i however did instruct and oversee instruction of handguns for many years for the Federal government. Had I heard that being used and I did. The instructor would have received a brief intense lecture on the basics of marksmanship which do not include that phrase.
It removes one’s focus from the front sight. One should aim for center mass while focusing on the front sight.
I will likely never reach my goals of patched round ball shooting…unless I can find an indoor 100 meter range, but my prior experience certainly prohibits the theory of aim small miss small when used for other than instinctive archery or throwing rocks.

i totally disagree with the phrase being used in marksmanship.

You disagree with AS-MS being used in marksmanship? Where else would you apply it? On the set of Cupcake Wars?

If you're saying you disagree with AS-MS being used in a self defense scenario, I'll buy that. To a point.

But it's absolutely applicable in "Marksmanship".

 

[64Springer]

I want to shoot a bobcat!! The onely ones around our neck of the woods belongs to the landlord. He would probably frown upon me shooting his machinery

Oh! Caterpillar hunting too.

 

[Some_Mook]

People think they have the right to blast away at Mother Nature's creatures without giving a single thought about those creatures. They believe it's OK to wound an animal and have it run off.

A mindset many will never understand.

The flip side of that coin is that MANY MORE do not understand the mindset of ethical sports persons.

I work with miscreants who cannot fathom why I will not converse with them when they start bragging about how they and their brother and father were shooting at a deer swimming across a river, or the ones who think that 'hunting' is all about the kill and they will take questionable shots in quest of a kill because that is what they are out there for.

Ethical people who hunt responsibly and with respect for their game (along with knowledgeable firearms owners / users) are the minority.

Some of my fondest memories are of hunts where a trigger was never pulled, or an arrow released. But I don't hunt for the thrill of killing something. I find the sound of a clang from a distant steel target to be very satisfying, and have no need to ever shoot at a living target at any distance farther than I could throw a rock.

 

[Jedidiah]

I fully understand aim small miss small. I shot a longbow for many years. It was an effective technique for that discipline. The phrase got popular after the Mel Gibson movie.
i however did instruct and oversee instruction of handguns for many years for the Federal government. Had I heard that being used and I did. The instructor would have received a brief intense lecture on the basics of marksmanship which do not include that phrase.
It removes one’s focus from the front sight. One should aim for center mass while focusing on the front sight.
I will likely never reach my goals of patched round ball shooting…unless I can find an indoor 100 meter range, but my prior experience certainly prohibits the theory of aim small miss small when used for other than instinctive archery or throwing rocks.

i totally disagree with the phrase being used in marksmanship.

You are certainly allowed your opinion. Handguns shooting was NOT the topic of discussion. I also am a cert trainer at FED,State level from back in the day with govt. When using a rifle with Iron sights it is not the same. To pick a target and concentrate on it, using your sights, was part n parcel to being a good rifleman especially at distance. IMHO

 

[Jedidiah]

The flip side of that coin is that MANY MORE do not understand the mindset of ethical sports persons.

I work with miscreants who cannot fathom why I will not converse with them when they start bragging about how they and their brother and father were shooting at a deer swimming across a river, or the ones who think that 'hunting' is all about the kill and they will take questionable shots in quest of a kill because that is what they are out there for.

Ethical people who hunt responsibly and with respect for their game (along with knowledgeable firearms owners / users) are the minority.

Some of my fondest memories are of hunts where a trigger was never pulled, or an arrow released. But I don't hunt for the thrill of killing something. I find the sound of a clang from a distant steel target to be very satisfying, and have no need to ever shoot at a living target at any distance farther than I could throw a rock.

Yes, and yet so many will say how its proper for those same people to have firearms? I ask, why would you want someone with that value set to own a firearm?

 

[Jedidiah]

You disagree with AS-MS being used in marksmanship? Where else would you apply it? On the set of Cupcake Wars?

If you're saying you disagree with AS-MS being used in a self defense scenario, I'll buy that. To a point.

But it's absolutely applicable in "Marksmanship".

agree 100%

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have to have a scope to shoot anything past 50 yards these days.

 

[Red Dirt Dave]

The same rite of passage extends to hunting. People think they have the right to blast away at Mother Nature's creatures without giving a single thought about those creatures. They believe it's OK to wound an animal and have it run off.

Things actually heard said by "hunters" in a primitive camping area.

"If it's brown, it's down."
"Shoot into the middle of them and see if anything falls."
"Anything that draws blood is a good hit."
"I don't bother following a light blood trail because I'll have other chances today."
"I haven't fired this gun but it's a good, accurate brand in the reviews."

I could go on but I hate making myself feel like vomiting.

 

[Bullit]

I try to keep all my deer shots at 100 yds or under. Preferably under. 100 is what I sight in for and I know where it's going to hit in between. Now that's with a good open shot. In timber that's a long, long way because any little twig that you can't see can cause big problems, especially during the magic witching hour when deer are on the move. In timber 60 yds is about max unless I have a shooting lane. For squirrels about 40 yds.

 

[Jedidiah]

I have to have a scope to shoot anything past 50 yards these days.

I hate to admit it, but I should be using one too!