How fast can you reload

[ebiggs1]

Watched “Unsolved History” last night about the Alamo. It was something like 12 to one odds. That could not be a good situation to say the least. Anyway boys here are my questions to you.
You know there were various different flintlocks there at the time. Just how fast could a man fire and reload his gun? Was it even possible for them to avoid the inevitable massacre?

 

[Cheyenne]

How fast can I load.....not fast enough, that's for sure! I've not really ever read anything on the break down of weapons used by the defenders, and wonder how many smoothbores were present, as they would be faster to load than a rifle.

I know it's hollywood, but in the recent Alamo movie, they had some firing, and others loading. This was also used by Lee's men at Fredericksburg, but that was an altogether different engagement and scienario.

Still, with so few defenders and so many attackers, the outcome is no surprise.

 

[voltagehound]

DGW has an article about fast loading. It says that"No recruit to be dismissed from drill until he is so expert with his firelock, as to load and fire 15 times in 3 minutes and three quarters." This came from a military paper of the American Colonies dated 1768. It looks to me like that is getting pretty bussy!I think personaly I could probably get 3 shots per minute !! Either way that would not reduce the odds figuring that the opposition was probably as well trained !! atriot:

 

[mr.flintlock]

The only way to avoid massacre was to surrender. Those brave men chose to fight to the death. I suspect that in the heat of the battle by dumping a non-measuerd amount of powder and spitting a non-patched ball down the barrel and seating it with the ramrod, a person could get 3 or4 shots a minute.

 

[MikeChapin]

I remember reading somewhere that during the Napoleonic wars, the British soldier was expected to get off three shots a minute. The average French soldier could only get off two a minute. That was done with a smoothbore musket. A rifle would have taken longer.

The Alamo defenders didn't have a prayer of stopping the Mexican army. Part of the wall was a three foot wooden wall that was defended by the Tennesseans. The wall itself had a makeshift firing platform that let the riflemen fire at farther targets but would not let them fire at soldiers next to the wall without climbing up on the parapet and exposing themselves to fire. Those conditions would make it tough for them to hold even if they had a couple of M60s.

 

[ebiggs1]

According to that show the Mexicans were poorly trained. They had to make three attempts as the first two were repelled successfully. So that may change our attempt of even considering the Texans avoiding a total massacre. It was also only 36 degrees.

 

[poordevil]

The only way to avoid massacre was to surrender. Those brave men chose to fight to the death.

I think Santa Anna had a reputation for taking no prisoners. So surrender was not an opption.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The first couple of assaults took place in daytime. The Final assault took place at night, vastly neutralizing the effectiveness of the defender's rifles. The Defenders were unable to kill dozens of Mexican Soldiers at long range, including officers in the rear. It upset both the Chain of Command, and the morale of the Soldiers looking at the great distance they still needed to cross under fire before reaching the Alamo.

The Alamo was overwhelmed by waves of soldiers, in the DARK, and it was all over before sunrise. The Mexican Army relied on the bayonets of its soldiers to kill the defenders, rather than their own volley fire, which had proven ineffective in the first two assaults.

Some small credit has to be given to Santa Ana for changing his battle tactics to neutralize the strength- unexpected, as he had never seen such a thing done before-- of his enemy.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Also the constant cannon bombardment resulted in the sentries being fatiged to the point some if not all were asleep and the mexicans were at or over the walls before defensive fire started. The defenders had a large amount of captured smoothbores as well as their own rifles. Plus many "grenades", many guns and most grenades were not fired!.But that doesn't make for a good movie!

 

[Mincerz]

With Paper cartridges Brown Bess paper cartridges I can shoot three or four times per minute.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yep. Starting with a loaded Bess and using paper cartridges I could keep to five in a minute. Not particularly aiming . . . just volley. Probably rip my teeth out if I tried it now.

With my Lehigh rifle and a loading block I take about two shots per minute if semi-rushing. I won't give up the horn-to-measure-to-muzzle steps for safety reasons. But I guess if the choice was Mexican Bayonet in the gut vs. potential third-degree burns on hand and face I might forgo that added step.


PS - try loading a longrifle while laying down beside a spot of cover. Makes a world of difference getting that powder in a horizontal barrel. :grin:

 

[Mincerz]

Loading a Lorenz rifle

 

[D. Bowman]

At one of our shoots last year we had a bowling pin shoot (shoot 3 bowling pins off a table at 15 yds) I was able to clear the table on average in 50 seconds my best time was 44 seconds useing my 62 flint rifle with patched round ball useing a loading block. No premeasured charges were allowed.

 

[Trench]

I'm right over a minute loading from the bag and pre-measuring. I think I read that early rifle units would average one shot a minute.

 

[Ketchakah]

The Alamo defenders didn't have a prayer of stopping the Mexican army. Part of the wall was a three foot wooden wall that was defended by the Tennesseans. The wall itself had a makeshift firing platform that let the riflemen fire at farther targets but would not let them fire at soldiers next to the wall without climbing up on the parapet and exposing themselves to fire. Those conditions would make it tough for them to hold even if they had a couple of M60s.
[/quote]

Funny, I was just talking about this same thing reciently.
A point was made that the Mexs had to scale the wall. Hard to climb while holding a gun. Why dident the Texians just use sharp sticks or a knife tied to a stick to stab the soldiers as they poked their heads over the wall? No need to expose themselves and fire downward?
There is something missing in this story.

 

[paulvallandigham]

To answer your question, Since ancient Phoenicians times, and Alexander the Great, archers, and later, soldiers with muskets/rifles were used to provide covering fire against defenders, keeping them away from the walls, or down below the top of the wall, so that they could not work to knock over ladders, before other attackers were able to scale the walls.

But, your vision is not very far off. Attacking forces expected to suffer 80 percent casualties on battle field attacks, right up through WWI. The Mexican army simply overwhelmed the defenders of the Alamo with their numbers, using the dark to get a huge number of men close enough to the walls before beginning their attack, that the smoothbore muskets were effective in shooting any defender who exposed himself over the walls.

If ONE defender managed to Not be injured or killed pushing over a ladder, there were 10 more ladders bring other Mexican soldiers up and over the walls. All the accounts from the survivors on both sides indicate that the final assault was accomplished very quickly, and with far fewer killed and wounded Mexican soldiers than had been anticipated.

 

[No Grease]

Wasn't a large part of Santa Anna's army made up of conscripts with minimal training? A wall of cannon fodder does have its advantages. And yes if you are proficient you can load and shoot three rounds a minute at a minimum.

:grin:

 

[hanshi]

While I've never timed myself loading (no Mexican assaults so far) I know I am slow by any measure. In the field I just accept that I have a single shot and any reload starts a brand new game.

 

[John Wasmuth]

The only way to avoid massacre was to surrender. Those brave men chose to fight to the death.

I think Santa Anna had a reputation for taking no prisoners. So surrender was not an opption.

Santa Ana had a declaration of no quater, he used the same declaration at Goliade and killed 400 men that followed Fannins orders to surrendor.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Sorry, its Goliad, no e involved.