How much Gun for Big Game? or How Little!

[excess650]

" He (Rice barrels)would reduce that to 1.250" diameter for a Forsyth rifled .62 caliber bore with 0.006" deep square bottom grooves, and a bore diameter of 0.632".

I have one of the 104" twist barrels and it appears to be .622" bore x .639" groove, so closer to .008" groove depth, and that isn't a negative. This particular barrel is 32" and tapers 1-1/8"-1", so should finish into a 9# rifle.

200gr is a hefty powder charge! My "little .62" weighs 7-1/2#, has a 2" wide buttplate, and a 66" twist Colerain that shoots nicely at 100-120gr fffg. At 140gr it would be OK for hunting, but not a powder charge I want to spend much time with at the range.

 

[SOLANCO]

There is no such thing as too much gun. But I still took many whitetail with ,45s, my favorite. For elk and moose I'd not go lighter than a .54; but likely I'd use my 20 ga smoothbore and patched round ball.

Corollary: There is no such thing as too much practice.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

" He (Rice barrels)would reduce that to 1.250" diameter for a Forsyth rifled .62 caliber bore with 0.006" deep square bottom grooves, and a bore diameter of 0.632".

I have one of the 104" twist barrels and it appears to be .622" bore x .639" groove, so closer to .008" groove depth, and that isn't a negative. This particular barrel is 32" and tapers 1-1/8"-1", so should finish into a 9# rifle.

200gr is a hefty powder charge! My "little .62" weighs 7-1/2#, has a 2" wide buttplate, and a 66" twist Colerain that shoots nicely at 100-120gr fffg. At 140gr it would be OK for hunting, but not a powder charge I want to spend much time with at the range.

I mentioned BS's barrel, and its bore & groove diameters to Jason yesterday, and questioned him on the variances between his and another poster that was selling a Rice, 31" long, Jaeger barrel in .62 caliber with Forsyth-style rifling that the seller said had a bore diameter of 0.620", with a quoted groove width of 0.200", and a land width of 0.040".

Jason's response was that he had made these barrels so long ago, with so much work in between, that he couldn't be sure what the dimensions were in the Forsyth barrels.

He did say that his own personal Forsyth rifle had led him to want to make any new Forsyth barrels with a standard 0.620" diameter bore, the grooves to be 0.006' deep, and the groove diameter to be 0.632". He did not offer, and I forgot to ask, what the width of the lands versus the grooves would be. He is using a 1:95" twist.

I arrived at my calculations in the above post for an 8 groove barrel, and assuming a 4 to 1 ratio of groove width/land width, as follows......

Circumference equals Pi times diameter
C = πd
C = 3.14 × 0.620"
C = 1.9468"
1.9468" ÷ 8 = 0.24335"
0.24335" ÷ 5 = 0.04867"
0.04867" = the width of the 8 lands
0.04867" × 4 = 0.19468"
0.19468" = the width of the 8 grooves

I arrived at the 4:1 ratio by eyeballing the width of the lands in the image of the muzzle of BS's barrel that he is currently test shooting that he has posted over at the ALR forum. I could, of course, be way off.

 

[BS]

R.J.Bruce
My barrel is about 10 years old. The only measurement that I can get is .195 for the groove. That does not count for the radius. Just point to point in between.
My calipers are not 'pointy' enough to measure the rifling width.
edit...[.048] for the rifling!
Very good calculations Mr.Bruce

 

[BS]

3 shots today
I used 1/16 lubed felt wads for 1 and 2, even #3 did not tear the patch.
.620 ball with red pillow ticking.

 

[Kenn]

How about this little bugger, U.S. model 1855 .58 cal. pistol carbine, shooting a 450 gr. hollow base minié ball? With the detachable shoulder stock, it measures 28 1/4" long & weighs 5 lbs. 7 oz. The pistol alone measures 17 3/4" long & weighs 3 lbs. 13 oz. For ignition, it can use the Maynard tape primer holding 25 pellet primers. I prefer it without the shoulder stock since its attachment isn't all that secure. This photo is from American Rifleman; they provided a fair history of it in their online magazine. Going price these days is just under four grand. Whoa!

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Well this is a long 6 page discussion. No bears in uk not really any wild country but that did not stop me dreaming and making a .6 smooth bore double rifle as I can licence it as a shotgun , 24” barrels by myself , locks by L&R comes in at a good 14 lbs. enjoy

 

[R.J.Bruce]

View attachment 83144
3 shots today
I used 1/16 lubed felt wads for 1 and 2, even #3 did not tear the patch.
.620 ball with red pillow ticking.

Great shooting!!

Are you using pure lead balls, or perhaps wheel weight metal?

I would need a Kick-eez Magnum recoil pad on ANY rifle containing 200 grains of ffg black powder!!!!!

 

[Gordoncourtney]

200 grains that's a lot of powder considering my 577-500 no2 double rifle , with a 440g bullet , only takes 140g in a brass case , it's energy around 2800 ft lbs I recall....( its nitro for black. Arm and sword 1906 London nitro proof ) I cannot melt the latest wheel weight , so called not lead.

 

[BS]

Great shooting!!

Are you using pure lead balls, or perhaps wheel weight metal?

I would need a Kick-eez Magnum recoil pad on ANY rifle containing 200 grains of ffg black powder!!!!!

Pure lead balls, with the right lube and a linen patch that group should be about half or more.[hopeful thinking]
I have some hard .610s that I may try with some .020 patching. 125FF, mild load.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

How about this little bugger, U.S. model 1855 .58 cal. pistol carbine, shooting a 450 gr. hollow base minié ball? With the detachable shoulder stock, it measures 28 1/4" long & weighs 5 lbs. 7 oz. The pistol alone measures 17 3/4" long & weighs 3 lbs. 13 oz. For ignition, it can use the Maynard tape primer holding 25 pellet primers. I prefer it without the shoulder stock since its attachment isn't all that secure. This photo is from American Rifleman; they provided a fair history of it in their online magazine. Going price these days is just under four grand. Whoa!View attachment 83145

I've always wondered what shooting one of the .58 caliber Model 1855 pistol carbines was like with that big minie ball and a 50 grain charge of ffg black powder.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

This is one of my early .625 barrels I rifled. Around 1in 36" twist I recall , my junk yard rifling machine has been

n improved, it's a long learning curve. I was using Vickets hollow bar then, today I have them drilled by Mollart uk

 

[ML48]

Lets talk about guns for Elk and Moose and such.

This is not about my gun is bigger than yours.

Just think of how many deer have been shot with a modern 12 ga Foster slug, millions?

A 1 ounce slug at 1600 fps.

Now, would you shoot a Elk or a Moose with a 1 ounce slug at 1600 fps.

I have seen deer shot with a 410 slug and drop. 1/5 oz at 1800 fps. [ Spine shot] With smaller gun, you have to be more careful and pick your spot.

Just trying to state that smaller guns work.

I have put a 54 cal ball clear thru the lungs of an elk, broadside at 40 yards. He didn't drop, but ran down hill out of the thick manure to die on the edge of a meadow. In the shade. With a second shot to the back of the head. 95FFF and RB. 32" barrel.

My buddie double lunged a huge cow, she staggered for 40 or 50 yards. 54, RB 120FF at close range. TC Renagade....and 2 others. [elk]

So 54s work on Elk!

So on the up scale we have 58-62-69 and 73s....and tweeners.........and bigger.

Are the y too big? I don't think so.

Thoughts?

I dropped a cow elk at 147 yds. with .50 cal round ball. Dropped where she was standing. I guess it's a matter of placement. Of course, now here in Colorado, if you use a PRB, you have to use a .54 cal. They just get dumber, and dumber, with the regs.

 

[BS]

What year did they make you use a 54 in Colo?

 

[William Lincoln]

Muzzleloader's need a large heavier projectile with appropriate powder propellant.
This offsets lower velocity. BUT THE BIG ISSUE IS KNOWING HOW,WHERE AND WHEN
TO HUNT. Sometimes in some places a guide makes a huge difference in success and
final satisfaction of the hunt (if you can afford it). You can often save money by using
the guide "lightly" by getting proper advice, packing yourself in and spending fewer days.

 

[Rendezvous Valley Trading]

You don’t recall Walter Brennan asking everyone if they were ever stung by a dead bee?
Bears are pretty tough and can do a lot of damage even though he has a mortal wound.
even dead deer have done a bit of damage to hunters when not treated as a dangerous animal cause it looked dead. So even though you kilt the bear he had enough left to kilt you.just like Hatchet Jack
Bears do like to take an honor guard to hell.

Yep! Been kicked in the back of the leg once by a “dead” buck antelope and once carried a “dead” coyote over my shoulder back to the truck. Took me a second to figure out why wife was screaming until it looked up at me under my right arm...

 

[ML48]

What year did they make you use a 54 in Colo?

It's been several years now. I saw one fellow comment that it was 1992....wrong. It has only been change several years ago.

 

[Crow-Feather]

As Grimord says it's about shot placement not caliber. a Grizzly bear has been taken down with nothing more than a .22lr, not something I'd want to face one with but it was taken down with one shot behind the ear.

I sorta remember the story. An Indian(?) woman and a male friend were hunting birds(?) with a 22 rifle. Griz followed them and they got up on a brush pile. When the Griz walked by, she shot the Griz and killed it.

 

[ML48]

Muzzleloader's need a large heavier projectile with appropriate powder propellant.
This offsets lower velocity. BUT THE BIG ISSUE IS KNOWING HOW,WHERE AND WHEN
TO HUNT. Sometimes in some places a guide makes a huge difference in success and
final satisfaction of the hunt (if you can afford it). You can often save money by using
the guide "lightly" by getting proper advice, packing yourself in and spending fewer days.

Perhaps, if you don't know what it takes to kill an animal effectively, you are either inexperienced and need guidance, or you don't belong i

 

[Rendezvous Valley Trading]

Perhaps, if you don't know what it takes to kill an animal effectively, you are either inexperienced and need guidance, or you don't belong i

Lol!