How much Gun for Big Game? or How Little!

[Eutycus]

He is actually saying you think the bear is dead but it is not. That has cost many in hospital time and funeral costs for their family. Does that help?

That's more or less what I figured. The bear was down but not out. Almost liked a "dead" rattlesnake biting you. A really dead animal of any kind don't intentionally move ...period.

 

[Kenn]

That's more or less what I figured. The bear was down but not out. Almost liked a "dead" rattlesnake biting you. A really dead animal of any kind don't intentionally move ...period.

As Smokey the Bear used to say, "Be sure it's out -- dead out."

 

[flintlock75]

Lets talk about guns for Elk and Moose and such.

This is not about my gun is bigger than yours.

Just think of how many deer have been shot with a modern 12 ga Foster slug, millions?

A 1 ounce slug at 1600 fps.

Now, would you shoot a Elk or a Moose with a 1 ounce slug at 1600 fps.

I have seen deer shot with a 410 slug and drop. 1/5 oz at 1800 fps. [ Spine shot] With smaller gun, you have to be more careful and pick your spot.

Just trying to state that smaller guns work.

I have put a 54 cal ball clear thru the lungs of an elk, broadside at 40 yards. He didn't drop, but ran down hill out of the thick manure to die on the edge of a meadow. In the shade. With a second shot to the back of the head. 95FFF and RB. 32" barrel.

My buddie double lunged a huge cow, she staggered for 40 or 50 yards. 54, RB 120FF at close range. TC Renagade....and 2 others. [elk]

So 54s work on Elk!

So on the up scale we have 58-62-69 and 73s....and tweeners.........and bigger.

Are the y too big? I don't think so.

Thoughts?

I have shot many moose with my .54 TC NewEnglander, 110gr 3F with a 425 gr minie. 20 yards to 125 yards all one shot kills, animal never went more than 50 yards. Brown Bess, .72 cal, 120 gr 2F .715 prb. Took a moose at 30 yards broadside it took 3 steps and dropped. It’s all in shot placement.

 

[Bob McBride]

That's more or less what I figured. The bear was down but not out. Almost liked a "dead" rattlesnake biting you. A really dead animal of any kind don't intentionally move ...period.

What is generally visualized when someone says you were killed by a ‘dead bear’ is this….

From out of the tree line 100 yards away you are spotted by a big male Grizzly who has either a festering wound or a toothache and as such he will not be put off by your modern hollering and dancing-a-jig bear defense technique. You, being a good outdoorsman (outside of your stupid attempt at dancing the bear away) are smart, brave, and cool as a cucumber, and already have your weapon in hand. You manage to hit the bear really hard 6 times on his way in, while the bear, though mortally wounded, acts like you missed him altogether, and runs the final 50 yards while you calmly try to reload, and beating you to the punch, mauls you to pieces in 5 seconds flat... The bear then backs off, roars his defiance at you, and promptly lays down and dies, while you grab the bits of yourself that you can find and limp away.

Later, while the State guys are running their autopsy on the bear, one puts his finger into the hole in the bear’s heart and says to the other, “Look at this, that bear was dead long before he ripped the britches off that poor sap….”, to which the other replies, “Yep”.

 

[LeonardC]

I was reading American Hunter (NRA) Members' Best 2021 when a ML pic caught my eye. Elk shot at 248 yards, T/C Renegade using 80 gr Pyrodex behind 458 gr. Lee .500 S&W bullet.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

I was reading American Hunter (NRA) Members' Best 2021 when a ML pic caught my eye. Elk shot at 248 yards, T/C Renegade using 80 gr Pyrodex behind 458 gr. Lee .500 S&W bullet.

That was probably Idahoron. I know he shoots that .500 S&W bullet, paper patched in his HOT ROD HAWKEN. Which is a Thompson/Center Hawken with a .50 caliber, percussion, 1:28" twist, Green Mountain, Long Range Hunter, drop-in barrel, and a leather, lace-on recoil pad.

 

[BS]

Or
Idaholewis

 

[BS]

Did a velocity test with the .62, the 125FF patch looks OK, but the 200FF needs some wadding under it.
Just wanted to see speed!
The 125 load is shooting well at close range, I just need to move the target out to 50-75 yds.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I was reading American Hunter (NRA) Members' Best 2021 when a ML pic caught my eye. Elk shot at 248 yards, T/C Renegade using 80 gr Pyrodex behind 458 gr. Lee .500 S&W bullet.

That was me.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Or
Idaholewis

I don't believe Lewis has shot an elk yet with his muzzleloader. I know he shot a doe whitetail a couple years ago.

 

[LeonardC]

It was a nice write up and an education in "what's possible"...Thanks for sharing.

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

Or
Idaholewis

He only really does target shooting with him muzzleloaders, hunts with centrefires.

 

[Stony Broke]

I've dropped both deer and hogs with a .62 caliber I have.....but I only use a PRB and 70 Gr. of 3f in it. I've never even tried the 100 Gr. + loads out of it.

 

[BS]

Stony Broke, this one has Forsyth rifling and a 104 twist. It is made for high power loads.

Like my motto, "Get Close and Wack'em Hard"

 

[R.J.Bruce]

I talked to Jason at Rice Muzzleloading Barrel Company yesterday concerning whether, or not, he would still rifle a barrel in .62 caliber with Forsyth-style lands & grooves. I called because my curiosity had been aroused due to BS's posts here in this thread, his posts over on the ALR forum (user name Bsharp) about his Forsyth rifled .62 caliber rifle, and the posts in both forum's FOR SALE sections over the past 6 months where someone was trying to sell off a Forsyth rifled .62 caliber Rice barrel.

The answer was yes. The cost was $395.00. Available in ONLY .62 caliber. PERIOD. Don't call asking about other calibers, as he doesn't have the tooling to do them.

He is willing to cut Forsyth rifling in .62 caliber in any barrel profile as long as several things are kept in mind. The waist measurement MUST BE at least 0.125" for the barrel wall thickness. This is non-negotiable for the strength required to handle 200 grain powder charges.

In a similar vein, if you want a swamped barrel profile, then a breech diameter of approximately 1.1875" octagon is going to be the minimum he will consider. This will depend upon the profile selected, and the length of the breech section starting at the threads.

For instance, he mentioned the Early Dutch Lancaster profile barrel which ordinarily has a 1.312" diameter breech. He would reduce that to 1.250" diameter for a Forsyth rifled .62 caliber bore with 0.006" deep square bottom grooves, and a bore diameter of 0.632".

The Early Dutch Lancaster profile barrel is shaped like this......

Breech = 0"
End of first taper = 9" (+9")
Beginning of waist = 23" (+14")
End of waist = 36" (+13)
Muzzle = 41" (+5")

The Early Dutch Lancaster barrel rifled in .62 caliber with Forsyth-style lands & grooves might look like this......

Breech, 0" = 1.250"
End of first taper, 9" = 0.980"
Beginning of waist, 23" = 0.890"
End of waist, 36" = 0.890"
Muzzle, 41" = 1.000"

This would give barrel wall thicknesses at the following locations of.........

1/2" from breech (clear of threads) = 0.3015"
9" from breech = 0.0.174"
23" from the breech = 0.129"
36" from the breech = 0.129"
41" from the breech = 0.184"

If someone just wanted a straight octagon barrel, then I think Jason is going to make the barrel in a 1.125" diameter, with a barrel wall thickness of 0.2465"

Anyhow, you get the general idea. A .62 caliber Forsyth rifled barrel is available in a swamped octagon profile from Rice at a starting cost of $395.00. Straight octagon, which I did not ask the price of, will cost less.

Jason has a proprietary, CNC machined, flint, Nock-style, hooked breech plug in the computer to be offered with the 4140CM steel, Fast Twist, .45 & .50 caliber, 15/16" & 1", drop-in barrels for Thompson/Center rifles. He's been holding off working on it, and offering it with the Thompson/Center barrels due to a lack of demand.

This would be a perfect breech plug, with a fixed tang, to be offered with one of these Forsyth rifled, .62 caliber barrels. If anyone decides to call Rice about a Forsyth barrel, PLEASE, PLEASE mention the CNC flint breech plugs to Jason. It would be great to have a high quality flint, Nock breech plug available for a Rice barrel.

Rates of twist can be from......
104"
95"
84"
72"

The number of grooves & lands is 8 each. As shown on the muzzle's image on BS's post/thread over at ALR. If my calculations are correct, the lands measure 0.04867" wide, and the grooves measure 0.19468" wide.

Thanks

 

[Gordoncourtney]

My 450-400 3" Jeffrey double will take any game in Africa It's said to be great for elk and bear 400grain bullet at 2125 ft/sec Or 4000 ft lbs of energy

So I recon you want a 900gran bullet at 1400 ft/sec to give 3916 foot lbs Or a 550g bullet at 1800 ft/sec to give 3957 ft lbs

Thete ain't no elk or bear in the uk In fact there ain't no hunting as such , just a spot of shotgun for the posh people, So my guns just hang on the wall as ornaments......it's a rough life here non the uk

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I sent some barrel thickness dimension to a friend its at muzzle and breach. Might be of interest. It was for working up a load for the .36 BP double to give 2000ft/sec 180g bullet Using nitro for black mix .....photo of .36 believed to be by Midland gun company. Proof marks BP Birmingham 1906-1954. Of course the pressure weakness is in the nipples, it's set for the moment for modern large pistol primers just a bit of fun.

450-400 3" Jeffrey double. .089" .261"

577-500 no2 double. Nitro for black. .116. .185

577 Martini. .0214. .335

.36 BP double percussion. .134. .300

Green mountain ??? .45. Ml. .174. .174

 

[kipcarter]

My 450-400 3" Jeffrey double will take any game in Africa It's said to be great for elk and bear 400grain bullet at 2125 ft/sec Or 4000 ft lbs of energy

So I recon you want a 900gran bullet at 1400 ft/sec to give 3916 foot lbs Or a 550g bullet at 1800 ft/sec to give 3957 ft lbs

Thete ain't no elk or bear in the uk In fact there ain't no hunting as such , just a spot of shotgun for the posh people, So my guns just hang on the wall as ornaments......it's a rough life here non the uk

If you are going to Africa and hunting the Big 5 then I can tell you from personal experience that a .58 cal is fine for plains game but a cape buff can shake off a 500g slug in front of 120g of Goex 2ff. I have taken 2 buffs with a .58 but it was a harrowing experience. An 8 bore works just fine though

 

[Gordoncourtney]

There is no such thing as too much gun. But I still took many whitetail with ,45s, my favorite. For elk and moose I'd not go lighter than a .54; but likely I'd use my 20 ga smoothbore and patched round ball.

Ha ha nice to read your words and voice Gordon uk

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Well this is what the cape African farmers carried from 1862 one left barrel 2 grove riffled .621 dia And right barrel around 12 bore smooth bore, both will take a patched .600 ball...or the rifled left barrel a belted ball or slug. a bit heavy at around 12 lbs You will have no trouble with elk and bear with one of theses How far will it shoot who knows but it's got 4 flip sight leaves, I can tell you there's some big animals in Africa as I lived there for three years, so anything with a .600" ball will down anything in North America...only wish I lived there but stuck in uk...

Many thanks for your wonderful stories us Brits can only dream about. Gordon