How Much Powder Is Too Much

[yellowlab]

If you need to powder up so far that you cant hit where you need to. Its time to think about a bigger gun.

 

[SamTex1949]

Up to now all the states I've hunted in require a minimum powder charge in the gun, normally it's 50 grains. Accuracy is the important thing, so I'd suggest starting at 50 grains and increasing the charge slightly until you get groups you're satisfied with.

Curious ! Now how are "they" going to determine that ? I aint gonna pull the ball/bullet, maybe shoot it out !

 

[tenngun]

Many laws are unenforceable and depends on us consenting to follow them.
Even the lead ban in Ca. If the shooter has non lead in his bag how would know what’s loaded?
It depends on the law abiding abiding by the law. I don’t speed because I think there is a cop around, I don’t speed because it’s the law.

 

[Sgt Doug]

The T/C 'SHOOTING THOMPSON CENTER SIDELOCK BLACK POWDER GUNS' manual' on page 80, gives the following for .54 conical loads using either T/C Maxi-Ball or Maxi-Hunter bullets:
360-365 Grain Lead Bullet
90 Grans FFg ….. MV: ... 1390 FPS … ME: 1566 Ft. Lbs.
100 Grains FFg … MV: … 1483 FPS … ME: 1783 Ft. Lbs.
110 Grains FFg … MV: … 1551 FPS … ME: 1950 Ft. Lbs.
120 Grains FFg … MV: … 1607 PFS … ME: 2094 Ft. Lbs.

430-435 Grain Lead Bullet
90 Grains FFg … MV: 1263 FPS … ME: 1541 Ft. Lbs.
100 Grains FFg … MV: 1345 FPS … ME: 1748 Ft. Lbs.
110 Grains FFg … MV: 1428 FPS … ME: 1970 Ft. Lbs.
120 Grains FFg … MV: 1499 FPS … ME: 2171 Ft. Lbs.

530-540 Grain Lead Bullet
90 Grains FFg … MV: 1218 FPS … ME: 1779 Ft. Lbs.
100 Grains FFg … MV: 1298 FPS … ME: 2021 Ft. Lbs.
110 grains FFg … MV: 1339 FPS … ME: 2150 ft. Lbs.
120 Grains FFg … MV: 1396 FPS … ME: 2337 Ft. Lbs.

FYI:
230 grain .530 patched round ball
60 Grains FFg … MV: 1263 FPS … ME: 815 Ft. Lbs.
70 Grains FFg … MV: 1469 FPS … ME: 1102 Ft. Lbs.
80 Grains FFg … MV: 1654 FPS … ME: 1397 Ft. Lbs.
90 Grains FFg … MV: 1761 FPS … ME: 1584 Ft. Lbs.
100 Grains FFg … MV: 1855 FPS … ME: 1758 Ft. Lbs.
110 Grains FFg … MV: 1931 FPS … ME: 1905 Ft. Lbs.
120 Grains FFg … MV: 1983 FPS … ME: 2009 Ft. Lbs.

Be Aware that Thompson Center does not recommend using any powder other than FFg (2F) in any of their sidelock guns, regardless of caliber. (RS Grade Pyrodex or equivalent fake black powder is also O.K., according to the manual.)

As for seeing unburnt powder in the snow forward of the muzzle after firing … I can't say I've ever seen or noticed such. Not even when using 120 grains of Fg (1F) powder in a .45 caliber CVA Kentucky rifle I had or 140 grains Fg (1 F) in the .50 caliber CVA "Frontier" rifle I had. (I only used Dupont powder back then)
I suppose it's possible for that to happen, if some (but not all) of the powder is moist or something.
Personally, I would not worry about it. Any unburned powder put on the ground will be a insignificant amount. Probably and most likely under a grain or two … less than is used to prime the pan of a flintlock, at any rate.
(I'd guess about the same as what is in the bottom of an "empty" can of powder, that won't come out no matter how hard you try.)

For hunting with your custom 340 grain bullets, I'd suggest the heaviest load up-to 120 grains of FFg (2f) that is accurate in your rifle; regardless of which critters you are targeting,
(120 grains FFg (2 F) since that is the maximum powder charge T/C gives, regardless of the bullet weight.)

No doubt you are aware that thanks to physics, the heavier the charge and/or projectile, the heavier the felt recoil is.

I use 110 grains of pyrodex rs under a Hornady great plains bullet. No unburnt powder and super accurate. Good terminal ballistics also. Deer that I have taken with it usually drop on the spot. Only one who ran only went 10 feet

 

[Sam squanch]

“A body at rest tends to stay at rest”- me after work

 

[brentona]

I have to admit, these replies have been a fascinating read. Thank you everyone! I hope the OP received an answer they can live with! Love the brain trust!!

 

[Carbon 6]

One of the things some people don't understand is, although there is more recoil due to the velocity a ball or bullet gains when the powder charge is increased, there is also more recoil because of the added weight of the powder.

If the weight of a roundball is 180 grains and there is a 60 grain powder load under it, the total amount of material that is being ejected out of the barrel when the gun fires is 180 grains + 60 grains = 240 grains.

If they jack up their powder load to 100 grains, the total amount of material being ejected is 180 grains + 100 grains = 280 grains.

Adding this weight increase along with the effect of the increase in velocity can make a big difference in the total recoil of the gun.

Don't forget also that everything leaving the barrel creates a vacuum, and that returning air weighs 14.7 pounds per square inch and is traveling at velocity. This, the weight of the powder and the projectile all add to recoil.

 

[Zonie]

Ummmmm
The actual weight of air is not 14.7 pounds per square inch. It is much less than that. It's the air pressure that is at 14.7 psi.

Yes, there will be a negative pressure in the bore shortly after the high pressure from the powder gas has left the bore. The returning air pressure's 14.7 psi, pushing against the face of the breech plug will create a force of 6 1/8 pounds of rearward force in a 12 guage size bore. In a .54 caliber gun it would produce 3.36 pounds of rearward force.

 

[Carbon 6]

Ummmmm
The actual weight of air is not 14.7 pounds per square inch. It is much less than that. It's the air pressure that is at 14.7 psi.

Yes, there will be a negative pressure in the bore shortly after the high pressure from the powder gas has left the bore. The returning air pressure's 14.7 psi, pushing against the face of the breech plug will create a force of 6 1/8 pounds of rearward force in a 12 guage size bore. In a .54 caliber gun it would produce 3.36 pounds of rearward force.

Ummmmm, OK I see the distinction you are trying to make, but I would argue that at standard atmospheric pressure, weight = pressure.

Does that make more sense ?

We also need to factor in G force acceleration, for example a ball traveling 1500 fps will exceed 46 G's thus increasing the weight of the projectile 46 times.
Then there's the speed of air retuning to consider and the pressure of gas escaping. (rocket science)

Can you walk me through your calculation arriving at 3.36 pounds ?
Were you just calculating air pressure ?

 

[Zonie]

I think getting into a serious discussion about weight vs pressure goes beyond the scope of this thread.
The 3.36 pound load assumed there was a complete vacuum at the face of the breech plug and suddenly a 14.7 psi pressure was applied to it, ignoring the mass of the moving air that would be applying that pressure. The area of a .54 diameter bore is 0.2290 square inches. 14.7 psi X .229 in² = 3.3666 pounds.

 

[George]

I think getting into a serious discussion about weight vs pressure goes beyond the scope of this thread.

Well, before you boys quit this tangent, will someone explain why they think there will be negative pressure in the bore after the shot? That's counterintuitive.

Spence

 

[nhmoose]

When your shoulder is sore for a week or so it is to much powder. Enjoy the flinch you develop and get to spend money to get rid of.

 

[Sun City]

None of this is going to tell you anything. First off FFF is a little fast for a comical and I tried the shooting over sheet stuff when I was a kid and got to 65 gr vol of FFF in a 32 with a patched RB and found nothing shooting over sheets in a barn. I think that Brockway was BSing Ned Roberts. There is a lot of info in Roberts book but there is questionable stuff as well. But it requires a lot of experimentation to sort it out.
Flash? Do a slow-mo video of firing at night. Its just about impossible to get no muzzle flash with BP given the amount of hot gas and solids that exit the muzzle (something that can be seen when shooting over white sheets as opposed to unburned powder). You don't need the power you are trying to generate. A PRB with the same charge will pass completely through a BB with lung shots and surely kill just as well if your barrel was not over twisted. The myth of the short comical being so wonderful has been created by the company that started the "modern" ML bullet thing and gun writers at the time who had not the slightest idea what they were talking about but "knew" the round ball would not work. The abject failures reported with the Maxi-ball resulted in the Maxi-hunter being created. Then all the other companies the jumped on the bandwagon when MLing was really hot and before the BPCR craze kicked in. I really wish everyone who hunts with ML would read "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" by Forsythe. Or perhaps some of the writings like that of Sir Samuel Baker trying a conical in his 6 bore "stopping" rifle in Africa. Where he says it got him into such "scrapes" with Elephant he stopped using it and went back to the RB.

Excellent!!

"The myth of the short comical being so wonderful has been created by the company that started the "modern" ML bullet thing and gun writers at the time who had not the slightest idea what they were talking about but "knew" the round ball would not work."

Not the first clue as to the performance of the PRB!!

 

[olskool]

I will trade speed for accuracy any ol time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[VADSLRAM]

I always figure that when the powder starts falling out of the muzzle and there is no room for a bullet then there is too much powder.

 

[George]

Well, before you boys quit this tangent, will someone explain why they think there will be negative pressure in the bore after the shot? That's counterintuitive.

Zonie, Carbon 6, you are mighty quiet, have you lost interest? Inquiring minds and all that.

Spence

 

[Carbon 6]

Zonie, Carbon 6, you are mighty quiet, have you lost interest? Inquiring minds and all that.

Spence

Nope, just respecting the Boss's orders.

I think getting into a serious discussion about weight vs pressure goes beyond the scope of this thread.

Got plenty to say though.

 

[George]

Nope, just respecting the Boss's orders.

Got plenty to say though.

I'm not interested in discussing weight and pressure of air, I just want to know how negative pressure in the bore after a shot is supposed to happen.

Spence

 

[Carbon 6]

Why do you think it is "counterintuitive" ?

 

[Ontario47]

Not interested??? 14.7 pounds per square inch pressure is created by the weight of a column of air 1" square base X the height of the earth's atmosphere (about 62 miles). Once the pressure at the powder chamber of a gun has fallen to 14.7 lbs there is no reason for the leftover gasses to move (at the speed of sound) in or out disregarding leftover vibration of the barrel,