How thick for blades...

[salkehatchie]

Posted here instead of the Accoutrements thread.

Early blades, especially trade knives were "thin" bladed. 1/8" more or...less. Not that long, 6 - 7" probably?

Later in the "Bowie" phase of our country the steel was much thicker.

Exceptions all round of course!

Any guidelines otherwise though? Most old blades I find appear to actually be made from cut up saws. Relatively thin there as well. 6 - 8" long. Crude handles. Cool looking though.

I have never been fortunate to find a blade in good shape, older, and that had any "meat" to it.

Thoughts?

 

[omarick1948]

Research is the key to anything and subject and knives are no exception. Knife blades were made for the job that they were intended to be used.

There are plenty of historic examples available for viewing with thicker blades, than the thickness you mention.

 

[Billnpatti]

Those old blades were not made of the high quality steels that we have today and wore out fairly quickly. That is why the antique knives that you find today have been worn almost completely away from continued sharpening. When you look at those antiques, they usually have blades with a cutting edge that is curved inward toward the spine. That is not by design, but by wear. The knives started out with a cutting edge that looked like most knives of today. If you want to make a copy of what an original knife looked like when it was new, compare it to a similar new knife of today, then imagine what the antique looked like when it was new. You can make a very good looking replica by using a piece of an old saw blade.

 

[salkehatchie]

'Xactly!

Every blade I have is concave in the middle. Most show hammer marks on the spine too.

 

[crockett]

I think 1/8" (.125") is way too thick for a trade knife blade (original blades). There was a website that dealt with French Trade Knives but the website was discontinued "NovelleFrance" but the Guy (Kevin Something- I forget) that ran the site wrote a book which ought to have a lot of information. When the website was up and running he had all the dimensions of various blades and I should have downloaded it. My error. I would drop down to 3/32 at least. A 6-7" length is average.
Nothing is etched in stone but I think a lot of the French trade knives had two pin holes and pins that might have been 1/8" diameter and the blades were thicker than the English. The English claimed they used better steel so they could have thinner blades and the English tangs usually had three pin holes and used smaller pins, say 3/32".
What I'm saying is from memory, don't bank on it but maybe someone here has more precise information- I'm just trying to bring up the various issues, sorry I don't have exact facts.

 

[LRB]

You're pretty much right Crockett. French boucherons are often about 1/8" though. From what I can find the French typical boucheron can be 3/32" to 1/8", with 1/8" being pretty common, while the English may be 1/16" to 3/32" near the grip. They would also vary some according to size, intended use, and time frame.
One problem with research on 18th c. knives, especially American knives, is finding them if we eliminate the Euro trade types. Few seem to exist if we want to see documentable examples. Ask Stophel. He spent a great deal of time looking, and finally gave up.

 

[LRB]

From what I've seen, you are also correct, unless we count broken sword knives and some daggers. Daggers seem to have been more common than many believe, and were possibly THE major fighting knife of choice during the 18th c. Again though, if we don't count the trade types which likely saw more combat use than any other knife of the time.

 

[salkehatchie]

Wick:

So...is it correct then that "thicker" steel was not used on a standard basis till say...1830 ish?

Custom work of course being a total different ball game.

Not sure where I read this, but the vast majority of blades were imports; French or English

Like you said, daggers, dirks, and the like did exist. And depending on your status [ money ! ] you might have had one.

Kind of interesting that those old boys used blades than many today would consider too light for use.

 

[salkehatchie]

Wick:

My favorite is the Scottish dirk for a dagger, but...what would the average blacksmith make for the average long hunter/backwoodsman?

Something very similar to the French or English trade knife, correct?

 

[Stophel]

In the 18th century, they used what was available. And what was available was butcher knives. :wink: (and folding knives... WAY "underrepresented" today because decent 18th century type folders are hard to come by.) Took me a long time to really accept this conclusion, but I had to be honest with myself! :haha:

So many modern "bushcrafters" want to transport themselves to the 18th century, taking all their gear, techniques, and mindsets with them. It doesn't work that way. They will look at a thin scalper knife and think it's just way too thin and light and there's no way an outdoorsman could ever use such a thing... of course, to so many today, a knife is something that is used like a froe, and pounded with a mallet. A strange trend I still do not comprehend. :idunno:

Also remember that there was no "survival market" then. Today, one can shop for woodscrafting knives or any number of other survival gadgets and gizmos and find everything from the ridiculous to the sublime, relatively inexpensive, and delivered right to your doorstep. Not so 200+ years ago. People who ran around in the woods were considered NUTS. Reprobates and savages. And such a small number that no manufacturer was going to bother catering to them. Besides, if butcher knives were good enough for the Indians, they would be good enough for everyone. This seemed to change during the 19th century as the nation began to take pride in the "rugged outdoorsman", and by the end of that century, camping/hunting/outdoor knives of all kinds were readily available.

As far as custom made/blacksmith made knives in the 18th century... well, I'm not convinced it was common at all. Neither am I convinced that they were non-existant. I have yet to see an 18th century blacksmith record book showing that he made a knife for anyone. Hinges, horseshoes, hasps, but no knives. I would love to see if there are any records of this.

There are some recovered knives/blades that are of the spike tang variety, perhaps of heavier construction than the common butcher knives, and apparently imported and sold unhafted, with the new owner affixing the blade into a wood or antler crown handle (simply stabbed into a hole and perhaps affixed with cutler cement?)

If one wants a somewhat nicer grade of belt knife, there are recorded instances of people using a "case knife with the end ground to a point". I have seen photos of one or two original examples of these. A case knife is a table knife, sold with a matching fork. Very common, imported from England. Much nicer looking than a scalper! Usually with forged bolsters, bone or antler handle scales, etc. Just take that big rounded end and reshape it into a decent point, and voila'! You have a hunting knife. I'd like to come up with something like this for myself, but time and energy is pretty well tapped out. Maybe eventually.

 

[LRB]

It's my opinion that smiths did very little knife making, compared to their other work. Surely some knife making but when trade knives were so plentiful and cheap, I don't believe common folk would spend the money for a smiths time to make a common working knife. I would have to think that only the upper classes would spend the money to commission a smith to make one, and then, most would probably prefered European craftsmanship to a local iron beater. There are just few surviving American smith made knives that are documentable. Now, Let me commit a little heresy. With some exceptions, about 90%, and I'm being kind with that percentage, of the knives offered by modern makers doing 18th c. type knives, including myself, are making fantasy knives. Knives that could of been, or should have been, but have little true historical backing, other than a small group of features common to the few surviving originals.

 

[salkehatchie]

Stophel:

Thank you. Sounds very similar to a TN state archeologist once told me. The "dig finds" did not have very many blacksmith blades in them at all. And if they were there ”“ they were not the dirk or bowie rifleman’s type knife we see so much in evidence today. I do believe he mentioned the spike tang blades too.

And I have always maintained if a butcher/trade knife was good enough for the Iroquois or the Huron, should be good enough for anyone else. After all no one on the frontier had a Bass Pro shoppe to outfit from! [not a dig on Bass Pro either :bow: ]

I appreciate the tip on folders too. Will keep that in mind! Nifty idea on the table knife!
So”¦’nuther question. Then the hilted blade was not common either? Again, the standard hilted, antler handled rifleman’s knife, while very cool ”“ was not prevalent ”˜a tall!?

I have the one thread bookmarked from this forum that discusses that topic. If I remember correctly I posted a thread from another blog with some fantastic European fighting dirks.
Again, thank you.

 

[salkehatchie]

Wick:

Wow. That is one heck of a statement. Especially coming from such a preeminent bladesman! :hatsoff:

I think that is a word :hmm:

Anyway excellent point about the time management of the local smithy there too!

 

[Stophel]

I think the guard was seen as for use on a fighting knife, protecting the fingers from an enemy blade, not for keeping your fingers from sliding forward onto the blade. Daggers had them, regular knives did not. Most knife blade designs of the time had a "dropped edge" (the edge lower than the line of the handle.. I have no idea what it is supposed to be called), which gives you a sort-of built in guard anyway. With certain national exceptions (Scots, Spanish, Italians) purpose-built fighting knives were definitely out of vogue in the 18th century. If you wanted a bladed weapon for defense, you had a sword. In the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries, the Germans in particular often carried the most magnificent big fighting knives. Beautiful things of various designs, but at the turn of the 18th century, it seems like a switch was flipped, and they just disappeared. Replaced with hunting swords and smallswords. Big fighting knives did not return to prominence until the Bowie knife craze of the 19th century.

 

[salkehatchie]

Thank you!

Just like you and Wick have mentioned, just a butcher knife essentially.

Great responses guys!

:thumbsup:

 

[LRB]

Exactly Stophel. I fully agree.

 

[Stophel]

Well, since we see portraits of Daniel Boone from the 1820's-30's with the iconic antler handled knife sticking out of his belt, we can say for sure that they were around then, and obviously associated with the "frontier". But, 1825 is not 1775.

But, there are some relatively well-datable archaeological finds showing this type of knife did exist earlier. One was found in the Philadelphia harbor (hardly the frontier!) with a sheath that is decorated and dated 1759, I believe. Antler crown handle, spike tang. Unfortunately, I know of no photos showing the blade. We have the famous "Ticonderoga" blade, with a long spike tang made to stick into an antler or wood handle, and there are other spike tang blades found here and there. I THINK that maybe a FEW of the antler handled "frontiersman" knives that we have today and illustrated in the picture books could be 18th century knives. COULD be... maybe... :grin:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have yet to see an 18th century blacksmith record book showing that he made a knife for anyone.

UHhhh......rumor has it that a blacksmith fellow named James Black made a pretty hefty knife for a fellow named James Bowie about 1827.
But, I'm from Arkansas. Wadda I know? :shocked2: :rotf:

 

[LRB]

18th c., not 1800's.

 

[Rifleman1776]

18th c., not 1800's.

Huh??
You said:

THE major fighting knife of choice during the 18th c.

So wadda we talking about? BTW, a quickie search on Google brought up the Bowie sandbar fight with his 'bowie knife' in 1827 then it said Black made the first 'bowie knife' in his shop in 1830. Love/hate wiki.....