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I GOT IT !!!

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dave63

36 Cal.
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Took the Renegade back to the range today...with every possible combination of patches, balls, lube and powder. Trying to bring a group together.

Turns out that all I needed was Stumpy's Moosemilk, some .012 cotton, and GOEX ffg. As soon as I got away from the thick patches and Pyrodex, they came together. Three shot group, and if you measure the holes center to center, they are 7/8 of an inch apart. Granted, that was off the bench, but at least I know that we can do it now. With 80 grains of ffg, I am dead center in windage, and about 2 inches high of the bullseye. I'm going to experiment with a few moer grains of powder tommorow, and try to get dead center at 75 yards, and see how low I am at 100.

Yep, I'm excited. It's finally coming together. Thanks to everybody for thier help.

Dave
 
Glad to hear that you are finally getting it to shoot for you. Be a lot more fun for you now that you know it will shoot good. Have fun.
 
Way to go...

Good ol' Stumpy's moose milk, by the way, he really milks meese to get it, ya know...
 
I GOT IT !!!
Well, ya durn fool, take some penicillin and git rid o' it! :: Ya can probly barra sum from Stumpy! :crackup: It's a great feelin' when it all comes together, ain't it? Good luck and good shootin'! :thumbsup:
 
Goose-Geese
Moose-Meese
That's what I bin tellin' ya, ya durn fools! You fellers gots ta learn tha languij! Another example:

Mouse-Mice
House-Hice!

It's jist like on them Brown Besses what's marked "Grice". That's the plural of Grouse! :: :crackup: :thumbsup:
 
Brown Besses what's marked "Grice". That's the plural of Grouse

That's what they're called here.
;
: Dave from Indy = I'm not surprised you had trouble with pyrodex- I do as well.
; You may have to increase your patch size with Moose or Elk loads. Higher pressures demand tighter combinations.
 
Thanks Daryl,

I'll experiment with some tighter patches. I know that with a .530 ball and a .018 patch, the thing is nearly impossible to load without hammering on the ball. I can't push hard enough to get it go go all the way down. As a matter of fact, I bent a nice aluminum range rod trying that. I'll try a .535 with the .012 patch and see if that helps.

Another question...I've heard alot of you guys that know what you're talking about mention power down range with a given ball, patch or powder load. How do you know these things? I'm certainly not doubting, just trying to find a souce of info. Is there a way to measure, or is the info taken from published tests or charts?

Thanks,
Dave
 
There are a couple of different formulas that measure energy.

The standard FPE formula that is most widely used favors velocity, and does not really give a real indication of killing power. If you apply it to a round-ball gun it will make it look weak, which it is not. For instance it would probably show (I'm just guessing) a .223 Remington producing more power than a .54" muzzle loader...but which one would you choose to be shot with? At 100 yards I'd take my chances with the .223!!!

There is a "KO" formula that is more accurately related to "real life", especially with lower velocity firearms such as muzzle loaders, the older cartridge guns, and big bore revolvers. It takes bore size into consideration and I believe gives more "weight" (!!!) to projectile mass. The FPE formula only looks at weight and velocity, with velocity weighing very heavily in the calculation.

Rat
 
A .530 ball and .018" denim patch is what my bro uses in his .54 rifle and loads 1 push, all the way down, 1st shot or 15th, but then it is a proper round ball cut rifled barrel. When my Brother and I started with .50 TCs, we both used a .495 balls and .018 Denim patches(compressed thickness) with no trouble loading, once we learned how. You need enough lubricant & have to use a short starter to seat the ball and patch level with the muzzle, then to start the ball down about 5" or 6", then choke up on the rod to prevent breakage when seating the ball down on the powder, 6" at a stroke. This type of loading was necessary to achieve our required accuracy with hunting level loads. Were we not concerned with accuracy, I suppose a thinner patched load might have done. Such wasn't the case. We learned to use a lot of lube, to keep the fouling soft - we knew we didn't have to clean between shots as that's what Roberts taught in his book concerning Kempart and the original Hawken rifle he tested. The first shot was as accurate as the last - without swabbing - that was our goal and we experimented until we found what worked & what didn't. Interestingly enough, what worked, worked in all ML guns we tried it in & it continues to work today in all the guns we try it in. Today, with proper deep rifling, loading snug combinations is easy comapared to what it was like with the button'd barrels, but we still achieved success with them.
: Kip, the American hunter shot a big bull Moose at 170yds. (lazered) 4 weeks ago, with a .54 TC Hawken with factory .54 barrel, virtually identical to yours. He used .535 cast or bought swaged pure lead balls and .015 OxYoke pre-lubed bore-butter patches. When practising, he shot without cleaning or swabbing, and the first shot loaded harder than any of the rest. He loaded it without trouble using the rifle's 3/8" hickory rod. He normally uses a GM slow twist barrel, but the Gunsmith who attempted to blue it for him, ruined it's interior, so he had to use the shallow rifling barrel for the hunt. Upon impact, the moose ran & collapsed 40 yds from where it was hit - dead. It took perhaps 2 1/2 seconds for the moose to drop as it only took that long to cover that distance.
: I now know, that the .54 RB has the power to kill big bull moose at that range, if 100gr. 2F(or more) is used. Most guys up here use 120 to 140gr. in their .54 Custom rfles. I know from experience that the .495 Round Ball, driven by 120gr. 2f can drop a bull moose in it's tracks at a range of 110yards., if shot properly. I also know that the .684" ball I shoot in my 14 bore rifle, has the POWER to kill big game at 300 meters due to the damage it makes in pine at that distance, and that James Forsyth one shot a Sambur Stag at 250yd. with a 14 bore rife, killing it with one shot, the ball exiting the far side. He used but 2 1/2 drams of #6 C&H powder. I know from experience that at 200yds. a .735 ball from a .75 cal rifle, will exit on a broadside shot on a moose, started by 200gr. 2F. (I know from reading that mountain men didn't restrict themselves to 100 yards on big game, but shot at long ranges at both game and Indians & that their rifles were effective at that range. I also know that accuracy contests were convened at ranges out to at least 150yds. from documentation in books. Round balls were the projectile.
: We know what the sectional density of balls are and what the ballistic coeficients of those balls are, and from that we can, figure what the downrange velocties and trajectories are and we can use tables of these same values to figure what the downrange energies are.
: See - given a certain weight, and a certain velocity, and identical ballistic coefficients (coefficient of friction) it matters not what shape the projectile, it will describe the same path (trajectory) and stike with the same ft. lbs. energy. It will NOT strike the same force on an animal, as the shape is VERY important to the blow stuck or felt. A needle of 300gr.weight strikes less of a blow than a ball of the same weight.
; The old Lyman BP handbook has downrange ballistics in it, all figured from formulae. All modern re-loading books have modern ballistics in them for downrange drop, energy, and wind-drift. Some have some BP data as well, such as the #25 Hogdon book. Hornady's site has some T7 and BP data.
: I have been shooting big game in British Columbia since 1972, but have yet to shoot beyond 100 yards at a big game animal with any rifle, antique period or modern. I know my rifles are capable of ranging further, and I know I am capable, but find that if a person actually hunts first, the shot will be closer than 100yards and most ML rifles have the power for that, using round balls.
: WOW - sorry it's so long.
 

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