I have a soft frizzen!

[stevenjay1]

I am somewhat familiar with the 44 Kentuckian made by Euroarms, but have never seen one made by ‘Jager’. The couple of Euroarms 44 Kentuckians I saw (early 1970s manufacturer?) performed similar to what you described until touch hole liners were added. As made they had a straight drilled hole that wasn’t relieved on the inside, and adding a threaded liner was simpler that pulling the breech plug and attempting to back bore the touch hole. A small sample, but a soft frizzen wasn’t an issue with them.

You also mentioned using different flints. Natural or sawcut?

The rifle is a euroarms 44 Kentuckian and I suspect a 70s manufacturer. Here is a picture of the jager stamp. The rifle is marked made in Italy. I’ve used both types of flints. I had not thought about a touch hole liner. One should be easy to install. You need to enlarge the attached picture to see the jager stamp.

 

[BEP]

"I don’t see a lot of sparks when I’m in a completely dark room." This sounds like the root of your problem, especially since you've tried different types of flints. Adding a touch-hole liner is never a bad idea on rifles like these but if you're not getting sparks not much will change. If you have the ability to install that liner yourself it's certainly worth a try; it can't hurt and it could help but without sparks you might still end up sending the lock off to someplace suggested earlier in this thread. Hang in there and good luck.

 

[stevenjay1]

We didn't get much here in the Lakes Region.

The lakes region got off easy this time.

 

[bronko220002]

Who can reharden a frizzen? I neither have the space or knowledge to do it myself. Thanks

Neither did I but watching a couple videos on Youtube I bought a can of Mapp gas and a can of kasenite and hardened my frizzen in no time.
One thing you must do after hardening the face of the frizzen is to reheat the area where it bends just until it starts to turn blue. This will prevent the frizzen from cracking in this area from repetitive hammer strikes.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

As it happens, I have some recent experience with one of these courtesy of a close friend.

A friend of mine has a Euroarms Kentuckian Carbine flintlock that he bought barely used several years ago at a pawn shop for $110. After not much shooting (but 3 dead deer), he wore through the hardened face on the frizzen. It's a neat little rifle and excellent for short range deer hunting. He called up Cabin Creek Muzzleloading and after a discussion with Brad Emig sent the lock off to him.

Brad hardened the frizzen and did a full tune on the lock. It cost more than the gun did but my friend really likes the gun for his hunting so he decided it was worth it to him. The past two weekends he shot on woods walks with me and the gun worked perfectly, whereas before he sent off the lock he was lucky to get a spark. It now sparks well. Brad noted that the geometry of the lock isn't good but there's not really anything that can be done about that. The biggest problem this causes is that it's hard on the small flints it uses.

My friend also installed a vent liner from Track of the Wolf because the vent hole in the barrel was too large. The vent liner's hole was a bit small for reliable ignition (it would only pass a #56 drill bit or 0.048") so he enlarged it with a #47 drill bit to 0.078".

FYI, for deer hunting he uses 60 grains of 3Fg under a .440 ball patched with ticking. For woods walks he drops the charge to 50 grains which hits close enough to POA that he's able to do well with the gun zeroed for 60 grains.

 

[Ohio Rusty]

Someone mentioned Kasenite. I have some Kasenite I can send you StevenJay1 if you want to try it. The Mapp gas the list member referred to you can get at any hardware. Mapp gas comes in a little yellow gas bottle like the blue propane bottles. Mapp gas burns hotter than propane and will heat your frizzen face a little more. There are probably instructions on the net about using Kasenite. I had paper instructions years ago but they became lost.
Ohio Rusty ><>

 

[mkabe]

Nothing more annoying than a soft frizzen!………sorry.

 

[Mcat]

Who can reharden a frizzen? I neither have the space or knowledge to do it myself. Thanks

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/366/1/TRU-SPARK-4
I hardened a frizzen for the first time on Tuesday. I used a propane torch to get it to cherry red not having an acetylene torch. It got there in a couple of minutes. Not hard to do and worked. The link above will lead you to a purchase of the hardening material, Tru-Spark and all the instructions for under $20.

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

Just re-sole the frizzen. The easiest and most durable option. If it is done right, you can barely see it.

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Where are you guys finding Kasenit? It's like Unobtainium where I live, ever since they stopped making it years ago. I use a product called Cherry Red.

 

[rich pierce]

It’s a waste of time assuming a frizzen is soft when you have poor sparks. Test it with a new fine file and test another frizzen on another lock that sparks at the same time. It should skate or barely scratch a hardened frizzen.

A soft frizzen will often catch and stall the flint.

Kasenit is ok for a hundred shots. Often folks get a good result with Kasenit when in reality they are just finally hardening the frizzen properly by heating to critical and quenching.

So many things can go wrong for the do it yourselfer who has no hardening and tempering experience.

 

[Mcat]

Where are you guys finding Kasenit? It's like Unobtainium where I live, ever since they stopped making it years ago. I use a product called Cherry Red.

Cherry Red was removed from the market for health reasons. I bought mine from Track before that happened. I used it on Tuesday for the first time. Worked great. Track now sells Tru-Spark. I put the link above a couple of posts.

 

[Rawhide67]

I've tried cheery Red twice, without any impressive success. An old timer told me to get some leather scraps, wrap the frizzen in those scraps, put it in a soup can with more leather pieces, fold can closed, stick it in the coals in a good fire, and let it go for a couple hours. Remove it directly to a pan of water. That has worked on 2 frizzens so far.

Apparently, there's something about the carbon coming from the leather hardening the metal.

 

[Jedd]

A little more info…. I pick up a 44 cal Kentuckian flint rifle made by jager real cheap. I have no allusion that this is anything but a mass produced inexpensive rifle. However, I am having some fun getting it to shoot. Sometimes when the trigger is pulled the gun fires almost instantly, sometimes its Like a fuse and sometimes it doesn’t fire at all. I’ve tried different flints and keep them sharp. Hence, I suspect that the frizzen may be soft as I don’t see a lot of sparks when I’m in a completely dark room. I have read that the frizzen was a problem with these rifles. Over all the gun is like new, great bore and worth spending a few bucks on.
To all, thanks for the feedback.
Steve

I had a Euroarms Kentuckian that did the same. I learned if a file makes scratches on the frizzen face, it is too soft. Too to a local black powder gun shop and the guy hardened it. Now it’s great. Those old locks like that are hard to find replacemt frizzen without replacing the lock. It’s worth getting it hardened.

 

[SDSmlf]

Kasenit is ok for a hundred shots. Often folks get a good result with Kasenit when in reality they are just finally hardening the frizzen properly by heating to critical and quenching.

Rich may or may not be correct about Kasenit being good for 100 shots, but he is not very far off.

I had the Metrology Lab where I worked test some samples of mild steel case hardened with Kasenit/Cherry Red as the manufacturer suggested. Microhardness testing found the effective depth of the case hardening to be no more than .002” to .003” at best. A sample from the same piece of steel properly case hardened had an effective depth of .015” or more, depending on heat soak time.

I also believe Rich may be on to something about ‘re-hardening’ frizzens actually just being a proper hardening, particularly the ones made out of steel that will through harden and do not requiring case hardening.

 

[beardedhorse]

Kasenit is no longer available. Something about cyanide gas as by product. Another replacement hardening product is out on the market. Both only put a case hardening skin on the surface and does not temper the frizzen all the way through which is preferable. Haven't used it so can't vouch for its efficacy.
I had problems with R.E. Davis's Twigg lock and ordered a spare frizzen. Turned out the original was too hard. Works fine now. Log Cabin has rights for Davis lock sales but wasn't handling them when I had the problem. Cabin Creek Muzzle Loaders is a good source for lock tuning and frizzed repair.
Started out in 1972 with CVA flintlock pistol kit. Frizzen O.K. Once soled a cheap frizzen on their deluxe lock with a Russell K. Hamm strip of de commissioned radioactive stuff. Sparks could catch carpet on fire. It is no longer available and highly carcinogenic and not recommended for use. Still have a blank in a lidded glass bottle. Was a warning article in Muzzle Blasts against using it.
If you get the frizzen working well and still have poor ignition problems the touch hole may need to be fixed by enlarging or installing a liner. Have you checked proof marks or stamps on the barrel and lock to see who made the rifle or where it was made?
A frizzen of poor quality and alloy may not harden at all and soling or half soling with a decent strip of high carbon steel would be another solution, It can be soldered on, epoxied on or attached with brass riveting - both ends peened into the counter sunk drill holes on the sole.

 

[stevenjay1]

I want to thank everyone for the advice and numerous offers to help and even send the case hardening products to fix my soft frizzen. I do appreciate it. However, the lock is in the mail and on its way to a smith for repair. I also noticed that there is an alignment problem with the hammer and frizzen (pictures below) which will also hopefully be repairable. I’m looking forward to getting this rifle to the range and out in the field.

 

[SPQR70AD]

Someone mentioned Kasenite. I have some Kasenite I can send you StevenJay1 if you want to try it. The Mapp gas the list member referred to you can get at any hardware. Mapp gas comes in a little yellow gas bottle like the blue propane bottles. Mapp gas burns hotter than propane and will heat your frizzen face a little more. There are probably instructions on the net about using Kasenite. I had paper instructions years ago but they became lost.
Ohio Rusty ><>

I read and have seen it that Mapp gas was throttled back and is no hotter then propane. when I start my pellet stove with Mapp or propane see absolutely no difference. they say the tip on the torch is more important. plumbers told me about the change in the Mapp gas. I bet the EPA ruined it

 

[JT1200R]

Nothing more annoying than a soft frizzen!………sorry.

Some Viagra will harden that frizzed

 

[flconch53]

It’s a waste of time assuming a frizzen is soft when you have poor sparks. Test it with a new fine file and test another frizzen on another lock that sparks at the same time. It should skate or barely scratch a hardened frizzen.

A soft frizzen will often catch and stall the flint.

Kasenit is ok for a hundred shots. Often folks get a good result with Kasenit when in reality they are just finally hardening the frizzen properly by heating to critical and quenching.

So many things can go wrong for the do it yourselfer who has no hardening and tempering experience.

I was waiting for someone to mention that the frizzen might be too hard. See if it cuts with a file. If not put it in the oven at 400 degrees for a hour, let air cool and try it again. For all the fans of case hardening most frizzens on production locks aren't case hardened to begin with which means you can just reharden the the frizzen.