I need some ideas

[StarnesRowan]

hey guys I am ready for another build but I am stuck on what to build. I only have experience with chambers and a pecatonica kit and I am nit ready to go to a blank build quite yet. but I would like some pictures of some relatively plane rifles like somthing a farmer would own in the 1760s-1770s

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Don't assume they would be plain rifles. Here are photos of my copy of a rifle from the 1760s owned by a man of moderate means, Edward Marshall.

Here is another that might be from the late 1760s and early 1770s. It would have been a moderately decorated and priced gun for the time.

dave

 

[Ponderosaman]

Hi,
Don't assume they would be plain rifles. Here are photos of my copy of a rifle from the 1760s owned by a man of moderate means, Edward Marshall.

Here is another that might be from the late 1760s and early 1770s. It would have been a moderately decorated and priced gun for the time.

dave

Wow Dave, you really hit that carving ****. Amazing work.

 

[Brazos John]

That Hunter's Star is incredible!

 

[StarnesRowan]

both those rifles are amazing! truly the only thing I forgot to add is that the rifle needs to be what would be on NC or VA about that time

 

[necchi]

owned by a man of moderate means, Edward Marshall.

How do you know Edward Marshall was of "moderate means"?
Was a "farmer" of that day earning a "moderate means" wage or living??
I understand it's a play on words of/from our historians,, but does subsistence farming earn the same as a "farmer" of the age?
Can a man earning "moderate means" afford one of your rilfe representation today?
Don't get me wrong Dave, thank you for all you share with us, but the OP asked about a simple mans gun of the era. The wood alone you display is far from simple.

 

[Conquerordie]

Even in the past Farmers could be very successful. Most would delve into other income streams as well. But I see what you mean, the true subsistence farmer probably would not have had as fancy rifle, more than likely a smoothbore IMHO. Maybe the OP can tell us how successful his farmer is.

 

[StarnesRowan]

The rifle I am wanting would be one of a man of some means. The rifle will be used for reenacting and my person is based off of one of my ancestors who was an Irish immigrant who had a collage education, was granted 113 acers outside of Salisbury North Carolina, and was a sargent in the Mecklenburg County millita. so I assume a fairly successful man

 

[rich pierce]

“Gun” covers a lot of ground. I’d start with location. Where does the farmer live? He probably needs a militia gun. If he’s not in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, or North Carolina, he probably does not own a rifle. Rifles cost up to twice what smoothbores cost, as rifling a barrel is a couple days work.
A good and inexpensive book is “Of Sorts for Provincials” by Jim Mullins. It leans toward militia service but has at least 3 rifles in it.
I would not invest the money and effort of building a gun based on responses to forum questions alone, though you’ve already gotten some excellent advice here. If you have Rifles of Colonial America volume 1 or 2 on your shelf I could recommend a couple examples. If you Google “RCA 19” you’ll find a plain-ish rifle-built gun of the period. Carved and engraved, of course. It looks like this and guns like this are not tied to a region. In those days guys off the boat we’re making guns wherever they ended up, with some European styling still evident.
Are you looking to buy or build, and if build, do you need a pre-carved, partially inletted parts set, or can you build from a plank? Kibler’s early rifle would fit your needs reasonably, with a decade’s wiggle room.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Edward Marshall started out as a hunter and possibly surveyor. He made some money from selling land after the Walking Purchase but his home and homestead in Mt Bethel was very modest. At least some simple decoration was a normal practice and likely expected to some extent and don't try to argue it survived because it was a wall hanger. It shows evidence of very hard use. Based on his family lore, it was the rifle he used in his vendetta against the Delaware Indians late in the F&I war. If you read any of the work by Bob Lienemann on Moravian gun making published in his books as well as his article in CLA's "American Tradition" , he describes what kind of rifle would be made by the gun shop at Christian's Spring in the 1770s at price of 4 pounds, 6 pounds, and 8 pounds, all of which have some level of decoration and none what we call today "barn guns". A 4 pound rifle was well within the means of a hunter bringing in a dozen dressed deer skins. At least in the Northern colonies, small independent farmers were generally prosperous and the goal of many tradesmen, including gunsmiths, was to earn enough to buy land and start farming, which brought prestige, income, and greater economic security. That prosperity was described multiple times by travelers like Nicholas Cresswell, Ben Franklin, and by George Washington when he traveled north to take command at Boston in 1775.

StarnesRowan, your challenge is that there are no surviving rifles from the 1760s that can be positively identified coming from VA or NC and only a handful that might be from the 1770s. The famous "Johannes Faber" rifle (Faber may in fact be "Huber") may be as close as you can come. Some think it is a VA rifle but there is evidence that it was from Lancaster, PA. I suspect the most common guns carried by poor southern subsistence farmers in colonial times was a cheap imported English smooth bore and those with more means, better quality English fowlers. There are records from a VA land owner (Phillip Lee?) during the 1740s-50s showing purchases of rifles from English makers such as William Turvey and complaints that few good rifles could be purchased locally.

dave

 

[StarnesRowan]

Hi,
Edward Marshall started out as a hunter and possibly surveyor. He made some money from selling land after the Walking Purchase but his home and homestead in Mt Bethel was very modest. At least some simple decoration was a normal practice and likely expected to some extent and don't try to argue it survived because it was a wall hanger. It shows evidence of very hard use. Based on his family lore, it was the rifle he used in his vendetta against the Delaware Indians late in the F&I war. If you read any of the work by Bob Lienemann on Moravian gun making published in his books as well as his article in CLA's "American Tradition" , he describes what kind of rifle would be made by the gun shop at Christian's Spring in the 1770s at price of 4 pounds, 6 pounds, and 8 pounds, all of which have some level of decoration and none what we call today "barn guns". A 4 pound rifle was well within the means of a hunter bringing in a dozen dressed deer skins. At least in the Northern colonies, small independent farmers were generally prosperous and the goal of many tradesmen, including gunsmiths, was to earn enough to buy land and start farming, which brought prestige, income, and greater economic security. That prosperity was described multiple times by travelers like Nicholas Cresswell, Ben Franklin, and by George Washington when he traveled north to take command at Boston in 1775.

StarnesRowan, your challenge is that there are no surviving rifles from the 1760s that can be positively identified coming from VA or NC and only a handful that might be from the 1770s. The famous "Johannes Faber" rifle (Faber may in fact be "Huber") may be as close as you can come. Some think it is a VA rifle but there is evidence that it was from Lancaster, PA. I suspect the most common guns carried by poor southern subsistence farmers in colonial times was a cheap imported English smooth bore and those with more means, better quality English fowlers. There are records from a VA land owner (Phillip Lee?) during the 1740s-50s showing purchases of rifles from English makers such as William Turvey and complaints that few good rifles could be purchased locally.

dave

As I have said the person I am portraying is of some means. so I dont think that a rifle is out of the question. but as for the style. The track of land that my ancestor owned is only a day or two on horse back from the Moravian settlement of salem and even closer to Salisbury both of which are known to have had gunsmiths in the 1760s and in both places where German immigrants. The man also lived in Pennsylvania for a time though I don't know where in Pennsylvania but he did come down the great wagon trail.

So the Edward marshell gun or something like it might not be far fetched.

 

[Brokennock]

“Gun” covers a lot of ground. I’d start with location. Where does the farmer live? He probably needs a militia gun. If he’s not in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, or North Carolina, he probably does not own a rifle. Rifles cost up to twice what smoothbores cost, as rifling a barrel is a couple days work.
A good and inexpensive book is “Of Sorts for Provincials” by Jim Mullins. It leans toward militia service but has at least 3 rifles in it.
I would not invest the money and effort of building a gun based on responses to forum questions alone, though you’ve already gotten some excellent advice here. If you have Rifles of Colonial America volume 1 or 2 on your shelf I could recommend a couple examples. If you Google “RCA 19” you’ll find a plain-ish rifle-built gun of the period. Carved and engraved, of course. It looks like this and guns like this are not tied to a region. In those days guys off the boat we’re making guns wherever they ended up, with some European styling still evident.
Are you looking to buy or build, and if build, do you need a pre-carved, partially inletted parts set, or can you build from a plank? Kibler’s early rifle would fit your needs reasonably, with a decade’s wiggle room.
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Great answer. And, gorgeous gun. Any pics of the fore end and nose cap?

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Hi,
Edward Marshall started out as a hunter and possibly surveyor. He made some money from selling land after the Walking Purchase but his home and homestead in Mt Bethel was very modest. At least some simple decoration was a normal practice and likely expected to some extent and don't try to argue it survived because it was a wall hanger. It shows evidence of very hard use. Based on his family lore, it was the rifle he used in his vendetta against the Delaware Indians late in the F&I war. If you read any of the work by Bob Lienemann on Moravian gun making published in his books as well as his article in CLA's "American Tradition" , he describes what kind of rifle would be made by the gun shop at Christian's Spring in the 1770s at price of 4 pounds, 6 pounds, and 8 pounds, all of which have some level of decoration and none what we call today "barn guns". A 4 pound rifle was well within the means of a hunter bringing in a dozen dressed deer skins. At least in the Northern colonies, small independent farmers were generally prosperous and the goal of many tradesmen, including gunsmiths, was to earn enough to buy land and start farming, which brought prestige, income, and greater economic security. That prosperity was described multiple times by travelers like Nicholas Cresswell, Ben Franklin, and by George Washington when he traveled north to take command at Boston in 1775.

StarnesRowan, your challenge is that there are no surviving rifles from the 1760s that can be positively identified coming from VA or NC and only a handful that might be from the 1770s. The famous "Johannes Faber" rifle (Faber may in fact be "Huber") may be as close as you can come. Some think it is a VA rifle but there is evidence that it was from Lancaster, PA. I suspect the most common guns carried by poor southern subsistence farmers in colonial times was a cheap imported English smooth bore and those with more means, better quality English fowlers. There are records from a VA land owner (Phillip Lee?) during the 1740s-50s showing purchases of rifles from English makers such as William Turvey and complaints that few good rifles could be purchased locally.

dave

Good information Dave! I was just reading about Marshall and his Rifle in one of Lienemann's books "Moravian Gunmakers II". It talks about his survey and land purchase. Lienmann does speculate that the Rifle being 10lbs would have been too heavy for Marshall to have used on his "Walking Purchase" based on how fast Marshall completed the Trek. Not really important but interesting.

 

[dave_person]

Hi HJ,
The Marshall rifle was made much later than the "Walking Purchase" event. I doubt Marshall or any of the runners carried anything other than knives and water. The Marshall rifle is a bit heavy but the balance is superb. It does not take much effort to carry it and the original had a sling. Bob discussed Caspar Wister a bit in his books but there is quite a bit about him online. He became very wealthy making glass and buttons. However, before making his fortune he was a forester (whatever that meant in the late 17th century) and game keeper in Germany and then he emigrated to PA early in the 18th. He imported German rifles into the colony during the first quarter of the 18th century and particularly favored those by I. A. Doll of Rothenberg, Germany. He wrote that locals preferred rifles with longer barrels and he did not want any more set triggers with fragile needle-like front triggers. He wanted them stronger. The Edward Marshall rifle has a barrel marked "IAD Rothenberg". I think the consensus is that Marshall's rifle was a restock of old parts possibly made in Bethlehem, PA by Moravian gunsmiths as early as the late 1750s but it could have been made later. It is a pleasure to shoot and while the wrist and butt stock are robust, everything forward of the lock is a slim and sleek as can be created with the big barrel. It is a very great rifle.

dave