I Quit While I Was Ahead.

[Herb]

I'm getting ready for a muzzleloader any-bull elk hunt in the Uintah Mountains Nov 2-10. On my last elk hunt (see ML Elk Hunts in the Hunting Forum by Herb) I used my .58 fullstock flint Hawken I built. My load was 140 grains of Goex 2F from Moosic, PA mfg, which gave about 1820 fps. I used all that up, so am now using current mfg. Goex 2F. Started with 100 grains and went up to 140 grains. The .570 balls and .021 red canvas patches required a hammer to start the ball, so I went to .562 cast balls, same patch. I like the red because it is easier to find the fired patches. Here is my range setup.

140 grains of Goex 2F gave 1721 fps, but required OverPowderWads (OPW), see Target 1 below. The large group may be due to my holding technique.

So I switched to 120 grains without an OPW, for simplicity and speed of reloading should I have to have a fast second shot at a bull. First shot with a clean bore was low in velocity. So I shot five more to have a five-shot velocity.

Had I not fired that sixth shot, the group was impressive (Target 2 below). But I did not quit while I was ahead.

Then I shot some Triple 7 2F which I got in April, 2002 to see if it really had lost power and velocity as Paul V. claimed in the Smoothbore forum, "Triple 7 in Smoothbore". First shot was 120 grains of T7 2F with the .021 canvas patch, which blew to pieces, as I knew it would. Velocity 1792 fps, shot missed the entire target board. Shots 2 and 3, I used a leather OPW. Velocities were 1991 and 2032 fps and the bullets hit high. Do I dropped to 100 grains of T7 2F in a measure, tapped it to settle the powder 5 grains (marked inside the barrel of the measure), and topped that off with 5 grains of Goex 2f and poured it into the bore. I also primed with Goex 2F. First shot (Target 4, lower right) hit high. So I did a six-oclock hold, and the shot struck at that elevation, but to the side. I held center again and the last three shots are in one fat hole. I thought I might shoot another two to prove it wasn't a fluke, but since I had 5 good velocities, I quit while I was ahead. Velocity average was 1874 fps with a spread of 24 fps. This is my experience with Paul V's claim in the Smoothbore forum that Triple 7 loses power once the container is opened.

Here is the .021 canvas patching. First shot with no OPW, blew to pieces. Then the leather OPWs were used, these are T7 patches.

Here is the lock of my Hawken, with the flint hooked breech. There is a chamber in the breech, was .360 in diameter and powder bridged in it. I finally drilled it out to .440, and the smoked dowel shows the size and length of that powder chamber. Smaller diameter chambers can cause powder bridging, even with Goex 2F and Swiss 2 and 1 1/2 powders, causing ignition failure. The Triple 7 in this rifle is entirely reliable, I never had a failure to fire, but I will not use it in my elk hunt, wanting to be traditional.

 

[Big Iron]

I would try the .570 balls with a thinner patch. I have had better luck with this than with a smaller ball and a thick patch.

BI :grin:

 

[rusty]

Herb,that is finer than frog hair,good luck on your hunt.by the way where did you get that red canvas from..R

 

[Herb]

Rusty, I got it from WalMart. The label calls it duck cloth red, UPC code 121718 - I guess. Lots of numbers on that tag. I have .570 and .575 balls, but don't have thinner patching that will take these velocities. Big Iron, do you shoot these heavy charges, and if so with what patching? If you do better than three in one hole at 100 yards, you must be good.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Herb,
I'm working on a flint .58 that will have a .58, 32" Sharon barrel. Twist is 1/72". Might your barrel a Sharon?

Regards,
Pletch

 

[ODG34]

That is interesting data. I just did a much less scientific test with my .45. I wanted to know the max burn I can get from my current load of .445 cast roundballs with an .018" pillow ticking patch from a 38" green mountain barrel. I normally use about 65grains of 3F for typical shooting so, that's what I used for a base line. My first shot with a clean bore produced approx 1670fps. The second shot supprised me a little, whith the same charge produced approx 1750 fps. A second shot with the same charge produced the same velocity. From there I bumped up my charge to 75gr which produced approx 1880fps. After that, I bumped it up to 80gr and found that velocity only went up to 1891 fps. It looks as though, unless I play with my patch and ball combo, the most I can get is around 1900fps and the most powder that will burn in my 38" barrel is around 75gr of Goex 3f.

 

[BigDeutscher]

This is just a Question
Why do you use such a haevy powder charge?
Back in the day the folks always said Ball Diameter = Powder charge
The slower the bullet the harder it hits
The slower the bullet the More accurate it is
And last ......If it doesnt burn in the barrel ,your just waisting powder.
Why are you trying to get center fire speeds out of a muzzleloader
These Are just questions !I am not in any way trying to start something
Just want to understand what you are up to and trying to gain out of such a heavy charge
By the By A C/W .58 cal musket service load was 63 grains of powder,and they hit out to 1000 yards.A soldier wounded at Gettysburg said it was like being hit with a 40 foot steel bull whip.
Deutsch

 

[roundball]

Good info Herb...you have long shots in wide open spaces out there for sure and I can appreciate the desire for flatter trajectory and whompability at distance...would do the same.

Biggest game I get to hunt here in North Carolina is a whitetail in pretty thick woods so a mid-range powder charge of 100grns Goex 2F is my .58cal deer load, with .022" pillow ticking around a Hornady .570".
My .62cal smoothbore shoots about like a rifle with 110grns Goex 2F, .022", cast .600".

Good luck on the elk hunt...

 

[poordevil]

A soldier wounded at Gettysburg said it was like being hit with a 40 foot steel bull whip.
[/quote]


That solder was able to tell the tail of being shot....Herb does not want the elk to be able to do the same.

P

 

[roundball]

Yeah, and I always wonder about some of the folklore that's been handed down to us over the centuries.
Maybe by some stretch a 'hail mary' 60grn service charge could somehow get a huge .58cal conical to travel 1000 yards if aimed up at the moon...(that's over a half mile)...but executing aimed shots at 1000 yards and reliably hitting a man strikes me as a whole 'nuther matter.
Maybe massed volleys were launched at field troops hundreds of yards away and a conical came down on somebody...

 

[robtattoo]

This is just a Question
Why do you use such a haevy powder charge?
Back in the day the folks always said Ball Diameter = Powder charge
The slower the bullet the harder it hits
The slower the bullet the More accurate it is
And last ......If it doesnt burn in the barrel ,your just waisting powder.
Why are you trying to get center fire speeds out of a muzzleloader
These Are just questions !I am not in any way trying to start something
Just want to understand what you are up to and trying to gain out of such a heavy charge
By the By A C/W .58 cal musket service load was 63 grains of powder,and they hit out to 1000 yards.A soldier wounded at Gettysburg said it was like being hit with a 40 foot steel bull whip.
Deutsch

100-140gn in a .58 isn't really that heavy a charge for hunting big game.
A ball diameter/powder measure (58gn) is barely a light target load for a big bore rifle like this.
A slow bullet does NOT hit harder than a fast bullet, that's just basic physics. A 300gn projectile travelling at 2000FPS is going to hit a hell of a lot harder than the same ball travelling at half the speed. That's just basic common sense.
As to a slow bullet being more accurate than a fast bullet, sorry, but cobblers. If the rifling in the barrel is designed for a high velocity round, then a slow round is not going to be anywhere near as accurate. If you factor in simple things like the wind, a faster bullet is going to be exposed to the wind for a much shorter flight. A fast bullet is far more critical of 'shooter error' than a slow bullet, but it is no less accurate in itself.
At no point has there been any mention of unburnt powder.
Incedentaly, there is a big difference between making a shot at a thousand yards, & a bullet travelling a thousand yards. I'd happily pay a very large sum of money to be able to see someone make an accurate, aimed, 1000yd shot with a Civil War rifle shooting a minie & a 63gn charge. The trajectory, bullet drop & wind drift would be almost incalculable.
I'm sure someone with more long range shooting experience than I could figure out bullet drop in comparison with today's standard long range calibers (.308, .336 etc...) & I for one would be interested to know just what that drop would be.
Out of interest a .308 round (The standard US Military sniper round) weighing 178gn drops roughly 240" from horizontal at 1000yds with a muzzle velocity of around 2770fps
A civil war .577 minie weighs in at about 500gn. I have no idea of the muzzle velocity with a 63gn charge, but I cannot imagine it being much over 1000fps (if at all)

Actually, using this data....."They fired a minie ball bullet in the .577/.58 calibre range.We'll call it .58 calibre.The load data for a 505 grain minie ball is as follows:ballistic coeffecient:.160,Powder charge:60 grains Goex 2f,Velocity(fps):703,Pressure(LUP):3,140,Muzzle energy(ft/lbs.):504,Energy@ 100 yards (ft/lbs.):405"
Calculated with zero wind effect.....bullet drop at 1000yds is 5389.3" or 449.1083 FEET

 

[tg]

"The slower the bullet the harder it hits
The slower the bullet the More accurate it is"

I am curious as to where this concept came from, if there is a "source" using this as ballistic fact it needs to be removed, the lack of burning a given charge in a givemn barrel is also not a general fact and must be calculated on an individual basis

 

[leslie]

Interesting results.I don't care for the uncapped can of Goex on the shooting bench though.

 

[hanshi]

A 500-plus grain slug is going to hit hard, even if it is just dropped from 1000 feet in the air. I've never been hit with a steel bullwhip so can't comment on that. A heavier charge increases the power of a prb which helps it's ranging qualities.

Where I hunt there is a 50 grain minimum powder charge which would rule out ball=powder weight loads in a .45. While I don't use charges as heavy as roundball uses, I do prefer charges on the heavier end of the scale for the same reasons he does; call it insurance. Having killed a fair number of deer with .357 revolvers, I have no doubt the lighter loads can take whitetails, however.

 

[Big Iron]

Well, never any better than that. I shoot 90 gr. of Swiss FFG in a .54. I was thinking of a way for you to use the larger bullets you have and make it easy to load. I use T/C precut .015 patches.
The gun is a T/C Hawken with a Green Mountain .54 barrel.

BI :grin:

 

[Herb]

Charlie, thanks for commenting on an apparent safety hazard. The can is capped. I make a pouring spout by soldering a cartridge to the cap of the can and then capping that with another cartridge. I drill the base of the cartridge out to full forward diameter (I cut them off at the shoulder) before soldering, then cut the top of the can to that hole size. This one is a .30-40 Krag with a .454 Casull for cap. A .270 or .30-06 can be capped with a .45 auto case, those easier to find. I remove the cap, pour my powder measure full and immediately recap the can. I also do this when I prime from that can.

 

[Herb]

Big Iron, thanks for the info. 90 grains of Swiss 2F is a hefty load and means your patching works. I have not tried the TC prelubed patches, but I think I will. I have more trouble with patches than anything else. I have used .020 OxYoke and that works well with heavy loads, but I couldn't find mine that day. I will try the .015 and .020 OxYoke with the .570 balls. That duck patching is too thick for easy use and coarser than I like.

 

[Herb]

Pletch, this is a Green Mountain barrel that came in Track's parts set. I got it from another ML forum, I would never use that hooked flint breech again, but since I had it I used it.

Flash1969- Usually the first shot out of a clean bore is lower in velocity, see my Target 2 above. You have a good testing procedure to learn your rifle. I have a .45 Green River Leman Trade rifle I built in their shop in 1978 but have not tested .45 rifles as you are doing. Lyman's "Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual", second edition, shows loads on page 153 for a .45 caliber, 28" barrel, 1-48" twist, with Goex 2F and 3F, .440 balls. With 3F, 60 grains went 1719 fps, 70 went 1790, 80 was 1861, 90 was 1912, 100 was 1962, 110 was 2043 and 120 grains went 2124 fps. With Goex 2F, 60-1614 fps, 70-1691, 80-1768, 90-1825, 100-1881, 110-1963 and 120 grains went 2045 fps, with higher pressure than the 120 grains 3F load, though 3F was higher until 100 grains.
Deutsch- good questions. The heavy loads are not for energy but to flatten the trajectory for a reasonable range, say 130 yards or so. If I knew a bull would pose ribs to me at 80 yards, 80 grains would kill him. But I prepare to take any clear shot within about 130 yards. The bull might be facing me, requiring a frontal shot through the shoulder bone. Or facing away, with a shot through the paunch and liver and forward. Or in brush. Or caked with mud from his wallow. Or I might not hit where I aim. You have to shoot when you can, because he will soon be gone!

Ball diameter equals powder charge, OK for squirrels. But .562 or .570, 57 grains? Lyman's manual says 60 grains Goex 2F in a .58 gave 1188 fps. Not for elk! 120 grains was 1568 fps, which by some fluke is exactly what I got, and 140 grains gave 1708 fps, I got 1721 fps. "The slower the ball the harder it hits."? Has Newton heard of this? "The slower the bullet the more accurate it is." Careful testing with different components can help one find accurate loads, they might be low velocity but they might be high. In my Targets 1 and 2 above, I changed my bench technique. On Target 1 I sat at the bench and rested the rifle on sandbags, free recoil. On Target 2 I shifted the front bag from close to the muzzle back ahead of the entry pipe, kind of knelt on the ground with my right knee and held the rifle as if shooting it offhand. This gave me better control of the recoil, thus better accuracy. Same with 100 grains of Triple 7 at 1874 fps- and three shots through one hole at 100 yards with iron sights does not show less accuracy with high velocity in this case.

"If it doesn't burn in the barrel you are just wasting powder." You are correct, I guess. I have tested to 150 grains of Goex 2F and there wasn't enough gain over 140 grains to use more. I am not trying to get centerfire speeds out of a ML, this is just using the potential of this rifle. Your questions were good,we all learn from discussion.

 

[tg]

"s. The bull might be facing me, requiring a frontal shot through the shoulder bone. Or facing away, with a shot through the paunch and liver and forward. Or in brush"

We could start a whole new topic on the ethics of certain shots, it seems that often the mindset is that the shot MUST be taken and it is not permissable to let an animal walk even if a descent shot does not present itself, the defintition of sportsmanship comes to play strongly here I think.

 

[roundball]

"...We could start a whole new topic on the ethics of certain shots, it seems that often the mindset is that the shot MUST be taken and it is not permissable to let an animal walk even if a descent shot does not present itself, the defintition of sportsmanship comes to play..."

"We" can't start a thread...but you can...you should go do that TG