I Quit While I Was Ahead.

[roundball]

"...The bull might be facing me, requiring a frontal shot through the shoulder bone.
Or facing away, with a shot through the paunch and liver and forward.
Or in brush.
Or caked with mud from his wallow..."

Or you're lined up for a perfect standing broadside shot to the heart and he starts to turn just as the sear breaks, now you've got a big shoulder in the way by the time the shot executes and ball gets there...nothing to do with ethics.

Milk toast plinking loads are for playing range games at 25 yards with charcoal briquettes, not for big game hunting. When I make the decision to go after a big game animal, to know I want to kill him quickly and humanely, I leave the squirrel loads and the squirrel guns at the house and go with Whompability...an example of ethics.

 

[tg]

"We" can't start a thread...but you can...you should go do that TG "

Probably not much point, if someone thinks that a Texas heart shot is a good choice nothing is likley to change their mind nor will anyone convince those who think it stinks otherwise.I am just surprised to some degree when I see these choices casually metioned particularly with a PRB considering its lack of rip and tear capability compared to a high velocity centerfire bullet,to each their own, I do not have to sleep with the choices of others.

 

[Roy]

The guys have been shooting 100 grains of 2f in Sue.. .62 rifle and she has taken a cow Bison with a pass through shot..
http://www.roystroh.com/sitebuilder/images/DSCN1

My first deer I shot was with a .50 flintlock using 65 grains of 3f. It was a Texas heart shot..(it was a perfect quartering away shot until I squeezed the trigger, and she did a nifty side step) not the shot of choice but the ball after breaking the pelvis and the spine and ended up the front chest cavity marking the ribs...

Accuracy is a lot more important than velocity :v :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Accuracy is a lot more important than velocity

Just to make a general observation, it seems like the majority of the times this sort of suggestion is made, it's as if it's strictly an either / or situation...as if you can't have both...and of course that's simply not the case.

My preference and goal is always accuracy AND velocity. It doesn't get much better than hitting a good 8-10 pointer with a high velocity .58cal / .62cal ball and dropping them in their tracks where they're standing...DRT...eliminates tracking and shortens the drag considerably.

:wink:

 

[Roy]

Pass through is pass through though.

 

[tg]

stout loads are a good choice but may not always be better, as mentioned a pass thru is a pass thru all the extra energy is just shed in flight and not load will insure a drop in their tracks shot this becomes a more likley scemnarion if one can bust both shoylders as one takes out the vitals which with any ML load can be problimatical, I see the biggest plus of the hot loads as being the flatter trajectory and increase in the chances of hitting the target a the longer ranges, which should not be taken with the lighter loads, another one that is pretty much a matter of individual choice and a definition of what is light load and what is a hot load need be esablished before any reasonable exchange of opinions be made as this is the heart of the arguement without these ground rules down and accepted by all any debate/exchange of ideas is moot.Again I am not antu heavy loads they just are not of any real advantage for my situation as I see it after 40 years of experience, nor do I advocate what are considerd light loads for hun ting as when limiting the max range I feel many hunters will not adhere to the concept in real life situations when the legendary Buck of a lifetime shows itself outside that self imposed close range limit limit just,the terms light and heavy loads are always tossed around with no real widely accepted definition of where one ends and the other begins so we essentialy have no real valid starting point for any discussion on this topic IMHO

 

[Herb]

Probably not much point, if someone thinks that a Texas heart shot is a good choice nothing is likley to change their mind nor will anyone convince those who think it stinks otherwise.I am just surprised to some degree when I see these choices casually metioned particularly with a PRB considering its lack of rip and tear capability compared to a high velocity centerfire bullet,to each their own, I do not have to sleep with the choices of others.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/783698/

 

[Herb]

Big Iron, I went to WalMart yesterday but they didn't have TC patches. Then looking at my own post above, I see I used .015 OxYoke in testing Donald's .58 Hawken for his elk hunt. I also used OPWs. I gave him those targets and didn't look back at my chronograph book. Will test those loads with TC and OxYoke patches. Thanks.

 

[roundball]

Pass through is pass through though.

Not if the target load doesn't pass-through
:grin:
The context of Herb's post is heavy charges for a flatter trajectory and higher delivered energy on Elk at long distances, ie: 130yds.
You're not suggesting your example of a 65grn plinking powder charge under a little .50cal ball is going to pass through an Elk at 130yds, right?

 

[Roy]

no.. but too many people think that they have to atleast shoot 90-100 grains in a .50 to hunt whitetail with. :v

 

[KHickam]

Roy - Although, I am sure it is not needed to take a whitetail - my 50 sure likes 120 gr FFg and it seems to whomp them pretty good :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

no.. but too many people think that they have to atleast shoot 90-100 grains in a .50 to hunt whitetail with. :v

Again, the only way that applies is comparing apples and apples.
The converse is that too many people think that a milk-toast load out of a .36/.40cal squirrel rifle is OK too.

The problems with these discussions is that people rarely ever establish parameters and often make across the board statements, which rarely ever apply across the board. For example, you seem to be suggesting that all anybody ever needs to hunt whitetails is a 65grn powder charge in a .50cal...an across the board statement with no parameters.

My style is to use decisive big game loads that have more authority so distance and angles are less of or not an issue. If I get a rare shot at a B&C whitetail down a loggers road at 125yds, I'll kill him without hesitation with my big game loads.
Otherwise I'd have to do the ethical thing and give him a pass, just watch him step off if I was carrying a target load in a .50cal, with the hope I'd see him closer another day.

Remember, the difference is that more powerful big game loads will pass through big game at distance for maximum damage, while less powerful small calibers with target loads won't...and anemic small caliber target loads increase the odds of never recovering a wounded deer, elk, bear, etc, shot at distance.

 

[Dphar]

This is just a Question
Why do you use such a haevy powder charge?
Back in the day the folks always said Ball Diameter = Powder charge
The slower the bullet the harder it hits
The slower the bullet the More accurate it is
And last ......If it doesnt burn in the barrel ,your just waisting powder.
Why are you trying to get center fire speeds out of a muzzleloader
These Are just questions !I am not in any way trying to start something
Just want to understand what you are up to and trying to gain out of such a heavy charge
By the By A C/W .58 cal musket service load was 63 grains of powder,and they hit out to 1000 yards.A soldier wounded at Gettysburg said it was like being hit with a 40 foot steel bull whip.
Deutsch

Civil War muskets launched a 500 gr Minie at less than 1000 fps. The trajectory is so high its useless for anything but shooting at a target that was 6 ft deep vertically. While they could shoot to 1000 yards hitting anything but an area target was pure luck. The long shots in the Civil War at point targets was not done with the Minie Ball.

1/2 ball weight of powder is also mentioned as far back as the Revolution. Considering there are recorded instances of British Officers being shot at 300 yards I doubt they were shooting 50 grains of powder from a 50 caliber rifle.
32 grains will work in a 32 being over 1/2 ball weight, but 58 grains is useless in 58. With a ball around 270 grains 58 grains is more like 22% of ball weight.
It takes powder to flatten the trajectory. In the west where shots are often long this is important.
People shooting from tree stands or blinds at bow an arrow distances don't need the velocity.
Getting a 58 caliber rifle to shoot accurately with 58 grains of powder is also very unlikely. Patched RBs are not Minie Balls.

Dan

 

[Herb]

So I went out today to test .015 OxYoke patching with 120 grains of Goex 2F and .562 balls. First shot was with .018 pillow ticking, patch blew to pieces and shot missed the board. Then .015 OxYoke with no OverPowderWad (OPW). Those are shots 1 and 2 at top. Target 2 was with .570 balls, .015 OxYoke patches and no OPWs.

Target 3 was with .570 balls, .015 OxYoke patches and .023 awning from WalMart used as OPWs, center of page hold. Patches at top show the unfired and fired patches. The OPWs blew to pieces but the ball patches looked good.

After this I centered the group by adjusting the sights. 2 inches (left) at 3600 inches (100 yards) is to X (sight correction to be made) as 24 inches (distance between front and rear sights). So 2 times 24 divided by 3600 equals .013, sight correction to be made. I had tried to adjust it yesterday, but the sight did not move enough. Best to scratch guide lines on the sight and barrel to be sure the sight does move.
Looks like I need OPWs, unless I find stronger patching.

 

[Roy]

I said thats what worked in my gun.. it was accurate with that load and had plenty of nock down power with that load for what I was shooting. :haha: Like the 100 grains of 2f seems to work well in Sue.. Not that everyone should use that load for there gun. :youcrazy:

 

[ODG34]

99 percent of the shooting i do is target/plinking at steel. Most of that is done well in excess of 80yds with sometimes out to approximately 220yds. With the 65gr charge (1750fps) and the sights zeroed at 50yds, I can use a 6 o-clock hold at small close objects (charcoal brickets or lollypops @ maybe 15 to 20 yds) and still hit a clay pigeon at 90 or 100 by using a 12 o-clock hold (off hand and not every shot is a hit).
The 65gr charge I use makes the .45 shoot very flat out to about 115yds or so, which is what I want. The gun is very accurate and clean burning using that charge. Also, the chronogragh proved that I am able to burn all of that and even upto 75gr which is what I was looking for to use as a deer hunting load. The only time I see a need to download my rifle is for squirls. I am still trying to figure out what the best load is for that. I used 35gr last time and even that might be a bit hot.

 

[rmonday2]

Thanks for sharing Herb and keep up the good work learning what You & Your rifle whant to shoot!

 

[rich pierce]

Blown patches can result from too thin a patch not filling the grooves and so you get gas blow by. Does your barrel have really deep grooves?

 

[Roy]

I think if you want to continue shooting that much powder you are going to have to use something more than a .015 patch they look shredded.. or maybe using a lubed felt wad between powder and patch. :v

 

[Herb]

Rich, the grooves are whatever Green Mountain makes them. Guess you'd call them deep. The .023 red duck works without OPW, but thinner ones don't.
Roy, the .015 OxYoke patches do not shred with an OPW behind them. The yellow awning OPWs blow to bits. The leather is too much trouble to cup into the bore for use in hunting. If the OPW is near bore diameter it might go down sideways, and even 3/4" doesn't reliably cup. You are right about felt, I want to try that. Ideally, I'd like to have a round or fluffy OPW that I could stuff into the bore and not have to cup it. Maybe wasps nest? Will continue experimenting.