Ignition speed issue? Possibly?

[Dphar]

So, I just refinished my first ever flinter. A .54 Cabelas Hawken that was very poorly put together, badly finished, not well cared for but as cheap as cheap can be & it kept me occupied for a few hours.

Anyway, I'm used to caplocks & almost instant, centerfire speed ignition. I just tried my first few shots with the flincher & boy, did I flich!

I primed the pan to about half-full with some ground up FFF Goex & the pan flashed every time, but there is a definite delay between the flash & the bang. It's not a huge delay, barely a 10th of a second, if I were to hazard a guess, but enough to be noticeable.
When I'm shooting at the club, I notice that most guys flinters are instantaneous, or near enough to not make a difference. What am I doing wrong?

Th gun is an Investarms & I assume that the touch-hole liner is the standard affair. I had to use a lot more prime than I imagined to get it to go bang reliably (1/2 to 2/3 of a pan) & if there was any space between the powder & the touch-hole, nada. I picked the hole after loading each time but I just couldn't get a real quick bang.

Am I doing something wrong, or am I expecting a bit much?

Go here http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/index.php

And look at the timing articles and slow mo video of flintlocks.
It is impossible for a good flintlock to be as fast as a good percussion. There is always a delay.
Only an experienced FL shooter can judge flintlock speed. To everyone else they are all slow.
Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

If your gun has the Nock-styled patent breech, which uses a LONG flash channel between the TH and the CENTER of the powder chamber, which is at the rear of the barrel, using any kind of wire or Vent pick will be counter-productive, and slow ignition. You have to know what kind of gun you own and are trying to fire.

The more traditional flintlocks have a TH that enters the SIDE of the bore, and the distance between the flash pan and the main powder charge is very short. In such guns clearing the TH with your vent pick exposes more granules in the main charge to the HEAT from the flashing powder outside the barrel, and causes near instant ignition. Use of the "White Lightning" TH liner, by Chambers, allows more Powder in the barrel to be located CLOSE to the flash pan.

In addition, the parabolic curve of the countersink on the inside of these liners helps resist gas escaping from the Vent as quickly as it does in other types of liners. A parabolic curve forces the gases back against themselves, unlike straight sided cones, which actually speed up the escaping gases. The Chamber's liner therefore allows for higher temperatures and pressure to build up quickly in flintlocks that use them, for the few milliseconds needed to get all the powder burning, and producing gas consistently, shot after shot.

The only reason I recommend use of FFFg powder over FFg powder in flintlocks that have the Nock-style patent breech design is due to the fact that many of these guns have flash channels that are too small, often not round at all, and occasionally containing burrs, and casting dross in them. This makes getting FFg granules down into the flash channel from the powder chamber difficult at best, and then moving enough of it over to the TH a gamble, no matter how many times you slap the side of the barrel to aid the movement.

Rather than limit the choice of powder one uses, I much prefer to drill out that flash channel slightly larger, at the very least, and polish it smooth, so that there are NO obstructions to powder entering and moving through the flash channel to the TH.

The Original Nock Patent breech design provides a much larger Flash channel immediately behind the powder chamber, which tapers down to a small hole a few thousands of an in ch from the TH. The hole from the powder chamber into the that enlarged flash channel is also larger than what is provided today in the current guns. Most shooters are loath, or fearful, of removing the breechplug from these guns so that that hole can be enlarged
adequately, too. I guess they prefer to put up with unreliable ignition, rather than fix the design defects in these guns so that they serve the shooter well. Others simply choose to use FFFg, even when it may not be the best powder to use for consistent accuracy in a particular caliber barrel, and put up with occasional hiccups in their gun when oil, grease, and/or crud build up and block those narrow flash channels. :shocked2: :surrender: :hatsoff:

 

[ODG34]

More is not necessarily better. It's not the priming powder that ignites the main charge, It's the hot gasses from the burning priming powder. Those gasses are above the burning priming powder not in it so, the more the pan is filled, the higher the gasses are in relation to the touch hole. If your touch hole is in the correct location (center of pan, and center of hole level with the top of the pan, you should not need much priming powder. My self made rifle goes off very fast with 2 or 3 grains in the pan which is well below the touch hole. My GPR which has a patent breech and a poorly positioned touch hole still goes off fastest (you almost cant hear the flint hit the frizen) with 2 grains or less in the pan. It does however, have an L&R RPL lock which has a very small pan.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Since the amount of priming powder has been mentioned, let me add that the location of the prime is at least as important. At the link below is a photo that shows .5 grain of Swiss Null B igniting in the pan. The photo is taken through the muzzle of a very short barrel. The barrel has a clean-out hole opposite the vent. The fire is strong enough to send a jet of fire out the clean-out. In my opinion, if you get the prime close up to the barrel, even small amounts will surprise you with the ignition speed. (BTW, I want a place for sparks to land - I cover the pan.) Just make sure you have prime close up to the barrel. The third photo says it better than I can.

Priming photos

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Squire1]

Very helpful information, the pictures say it all.

 

[shortbow]

Ain't that the truth. One of the most helpful things I've seen re. ignition speed.

 

[ebiggs1]

My experience is more prime is better that less prime. Another factor in this is “reliable” ignition. I have gotten a flintlock to fire with NO prime in the pan at all but I certainly would not recommend it for general practice. That alone says more prime is better than less. Just what is “more prime”? I don't know what that means to an individual gun but the more coverage you have in your pan the better. As far as prime falling inside the touch hole or covering the touch hole being detrimental, is simply nonsense. My very unscientific tests mirror Mr. Pletcher's findings closely. I have done some photographic evidence to satisfy my own curiosity but you may choose to not consider it.
As you wish..........

 

[roundball]

And as an aside...none of the modern made 'Patent Breeches' I've ever owned from T/C, GM, and a Custom Breeching shop recommended by TOW, have a tiny little flash chamber...never saw any like that at all and I've owned a lot of them.

Every patent breech I've personally owned and used have flash channels the same size as the hole drilled for the 1/4"x28 vent liners that come with T/C and GM barrels...you remove the vent liner and the same large diameter hole simply goes straight in to the bottom of the vertical powder chamber...a big fat Q-tip is loose in the hole.

In fact, the Custom Breeching shop has made 'Patent Breech' design plugs on 6 barrels for me now, and there's never even been any dissussion about the size of the flash channel...by default its simply the same size as the hole bored for the liner seat.

The main powder charge is dropped in and flows over to the thin .030" wall separating the powder from the pan, with kernels sitting perched right there in plain sight in the .070" vent hole...ignition is always simply incredible without ever using any vent picks.

Consistent 3 grains of 4F in the pan every time using a 'pan primer' and no matter if a T/C lock and T/C or GM patent breeches, or a Chambers deluxe siler with the custom made patent breechplugs, the end result is always the same...'seemingly' instantaneous ignition.

 

[robtattoo]

This is the exact setup my Investarms has. Remove the liner & there's a 1/4" hole straight through into the breech.
I believe my issue is simply down to not enough prime in the pan. I don't have any 4F to try, so I'm just grinding up some 3F to a fine powder (I guess this would be equivalent to null B)
I hadn't even considered placement in the pan as I didn't even know it could or would make any difference. Like I said, this is my first ever experience with a flintlock.
I will be out again this afternoon to bench my rifle & try a few different suggestions regarding powders & primes & see what works.
Thank you all for your help, advice & suggestions.
I must say, the down bore photographs of a prime igniting were a real eye-opener!

 

[roundball]

This is the exact setup my Investarms has. Remove the liner & there's a 1/4" hole straight through into the breech.
I believe my issue is simply down to not enough prime in the pan. I don't have any 4F to try, so I'm just grinding up some 3F to a fine powder (I guess this would be equivalent to null B)
I hadn't even considered placement in the pan as I didn't even know it could or would make any difference. Like I said, this is my first ever experience with a flintlock.
I will be out again this afternoon to bench my rifle & try a few different suggestions regarding powders & primes & see what works.
Thank you all for your help, advice & suggestions.
I must say, the down bore photographs of a prime igniting were a real eye-opener!

The new improved 1/4x28 vent liner used by T/C for the last 15 years now performs like the white lightning liners that were the only other game in town until this redesigned 1/4x28 liner came out.
Heavily coned inside and out, large .070" hole (#50 drill), thin .030" wall...incredibly fast. Two in a blister pack for $4-5 bucks...you really should consider trying them.
Using a patent breech, sharp black english flints with 4F prime and this new style replacement vent liner, makes shooting my Flintlocks seem like I'm shooting a .30-30.

 

[tg]

Genaraly if evering else is good the amount (to little) or placement of the prime or be it 4f/3f will not make much of a difference, if it has been mentioned I missed it what size is the vent hole? I would look closely at this feature

 

[ebiggs1]

I have tried to convey the exact points you brought up but some forum members choose to ignore those facts for some reason. I am just reporting what I have witnessed in using my flintlocks albeit for a much shorter time than you. I don't know why? :hmm:

 

[jethro224]

I'm also thinking maybe your touch hole is too small.

Another thing... you are using real blackpowder, right?

 

[robtattoo]

I'm also thinking maybe your touch hole is too small.

Another thing... you are using real blackpowder, right?

Yes on the real black.
I'm going to try a T/C vent liner, thanks to advice further up this thread. The standard Investarms liner is apparently .0625" & is a parallel tube at the back, rather than a cone.

I shot it a little more yesterday comparing 3F to 2F & the 3F powder is definately quicker. It shoots better groups too, which is handy :v

As soon as my T/C liner arrives, I'll post up some more findings.

 

[jethro224]

I'm not positive, but I think the Investarms liner is a metric thread where the T/C liner is 1/4 x 28. ebiggs could probably tell you for sure since he owns both a T/C and a GPR(barrel made by Investarms).

You could drill the touch hole in your stock liner out to 1/16" or 5/64" easy enough.

The "cone" is not the whole liner, just the bottom of the "tube". Rather than a flat bottom it is a taper. Like you get with a countersink bit. It allows the liner to be thinner at the actual hole than out near the threads, so the powder can sit closer without weakening the whole liner too much.
Did that make sense?

 

[robtattoo]

Yeah, the Investarms liner is 6 x .75 but Track sells a T/C manufactured replacement (along with a Treso)

I understand about the coning. Looking at my liner, the 'cone' is actually parallel hole, larger than the touch hole itself, which I assume serves the same purpose in getting powder closer to the prime. The outside face of my liner is pretty badly chewed up. It looks lik it's been attacked with a screwdriver that didn't fit the slot too well. I've cleaned & polished the face as best I can, but there are still a few burrs inside the slot itself that I have not been able to remove. I would assume that any burr, or hang-up, would deflect & impede tha flow of gasses into the chamber. I'm just thinking out loud here, I have absolutley nothing other than my own 'floppy logic' to base this on!

 

[Randall Slemp]

When I started shooting my new .54 GPR a few months back, I was having inconsistent results and several flash in the pan problems. Based on the feedback from the some of the members here, I began enlarging the touch hole, first to 1/16 (no change) then to .067 (which worked) and finally to .070 (just to make sure). In the last 21 shots, it fired every time. I also eliminated picking the touch hole between shots. So, I am using 2F for the charge and 3F for prime (filling the pan between 1/2 and 3/4 full, evenly spread out) and it's firing every time. Now of course I'll need more shots to establish the reliability for sure, but I am pretty convinced that the larger TH size has solved the problem. Thanks for the advice E.Biggs and others :thumbsup: .

 

[ebiggs1]

TC and Lyman touch hole liners are not interchangeable with each other.
You do not need to buy a liner if you want to try this. Use a #50 drill (or 5/64th) and a counter sink bit. You can get these at most hardware stores lie Ace.

As stated earlier, I like to document what I have found to work. Here is a photo of a half full pan on a TC but it is the same for the Lyman GPR lock.

Here is the GPR lock doing it's thing. This one has the TC hammer cock conversion.
As you can see it produces plenty of FIRE!

 

[Macon Due]

Sir
Try what Mr.Biggs is saying first,it costs you nothing. I did exactly that with my .36 [5/64" and countersink]and it is now surefife.
Macon

 

[robtattoo]

I picked up a 5/64 bit today to try it. If nothing else, at last I'll have a spare when the T/C liner comes in!