India Barrel Failure

[8Ball]

I am not too shabby to tell that I plan to buy a 1728 French musket from Loyalist Arms in a near future. I will use it for 17th-18th century reenactements but be sure that I will fully proof test the barrel as Loyalist Arms recommend. At this moment use my custom made Fusil de Chasse but I am always a bit nervous about putting some dings on it... it makes me freak a bit but that's me...

 

[sturmkatze]

.

Stupid system.

 

[Commodore Swab]

And the date of manufacture was 11 April, 2011. (11.4.11)

LD

Actually while the numbers appear to be a date they aren't. It is a different numbering system. I want to say it identifies the shop, build, year or something along those lines. Comparable to how a tire might have a date stamp of 3622 which identifies it as being made in the 36th week of 2022.

 

[waksupi]

Will you be firing projectiles?

 

[cyten]

Despite the attitude in your first line you gave very good information on what was going on and you also perhaps inadvertently brought something else to light. The maker was identified at least to a point. Most of the comments made by folks on this topic smear all Indian made arms. Not all are going to be bad - the same can be said that there are crappy Italian, Belgian, Spanish and even US made arms. I would want to have no part of any barrel made by R.A. At the same point I have purchased new in the past a rifle made by a renowned Italian maker that was unsafe. Does that make everyone they make unsafe or every arm made in Italy unsafe? Absolutely not I am sure it was an aberration. Objectivity needs to be what matters in these posts. You gave objective information as to the test. Thank You.

What attitude did I give? I merely posted a link

 

[Snooterpup]

With all the experts here? Silly you

Remember
Expert:
Ex, is a has-been
Spurt, drip under pressure.

 

[deGheyn]

As a proof house maintaining standards why was the load for a .45 used not a .62?

Looks like they used the 20ga(.62) load. About 5 times the standard load for this pistol in addition to being 4fg instead of 2fg.

 

[deGheyn]

Do you have a listing of these companies and their marks?

The one's I have are:

From Loyalist Arms: Wheellock pistol
Marked "R.G.M. CO UDAIPUR INDIA"

RAJASTHAN GUN MFRG. CO., ML. GUN MANUFACTURERS

and Doglock Blunderbuss
Marked "R.A. UDAIPUR INDIA" RAJASTHAN GUN MFRG. CO., ML. GUN MANUFACTURERS

From The Discriminating General(Now DBA Military Heritage): English Civil War pistol (English lock)
Marked "A.H.U. UDR INDIA" ABDUL HAKIM USTA, M.L. GUN MANUFACTIJRERS

Here's a link to more of the manufacturers, but no info on markings: https://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?t=24272&start=15

 

[Spud17]

Looks like they used the 20ga(.62) load. About 5 times the standard load for this pistol in addition to being 4fg instead of 2fg.

Agreed, because it's a smoothbore. You can assume the second half of the list are rifles. That also explains the shot load. Shot also would give some uniformity to the projectile given that bore dimensions vary and could have a substantial effect on pressures.
Does anyone have a source for information about chamber pressures for different bores, charges, projectiles and powder grades? That coupled with velocity would be very interesting.

 

[Rudyard]

An example of the markings under a barrel.

R.G.M.CO. UDAIPUR. INDIA
B/775. 11.4.11

Much like a serial number when you know what each means it will tell you about the barrel. What is offered is nothing more than "This was a .62 caliber smooth bore flintlock pistol made by R.A. in India"

Logic would say that this is a different and unknown manufacturer. Assuming this failure was legitimate (Im skeptical) to discredit different manufactures is nothing more than slander against those companies. Do what's right, identify the manufacturer and attack them, not the country of origin!

Hear Hear Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

First , these guns are shipped without touch-holes being drilled. So they are not proofed at all unless the end user sends them off to a proof house or does it themselves. I add that none of the thousands of hobby built guns in America are proofed either.
American barrel makers use the best steel and make barrels at least three times stronger than they need to be.
I also add that many thousands of India made guns are giving good service all over the world.
This is the only known and documented example of one blowing up that I have ever seen and that is with a charge far higher than any reasonable person would ever put in their gum.

Again common sense not inuendo and knocking our Aryan brothers out of prejudice . I do know a bit about Indian outlooks and first hand observed artisan's limitations & conversely abilities that rate highly in any ones fair assessment . Its the middle man forces the workers to short cut all down to price .

Vulgarly put'' You Pay peanuts you get Monkeys ','But I managed to' work up' these guns to be fire risks & Ime sure Loyalist arms do much the same . .I used just such a 'worked up' musket I had in the US for my Reenacting , a real' Cobblers kid' got up of the parts of three ruined muskets .All the Indian barrels I handled went through Birmingham Proof house no failures .
Rudyard's observations

 

[Tumbledown]

Actually, ALL of the ones that I purchased came with the touch hole drilled and sold with the intent to be live fired.

LD

I believe John Davis was referring to when they're shipped from India.

 

[deGheyn]

They leave India without a touch hole due to the India Arms act of 1959. The same reason knives and swords leave there without an edge. Most importers will do some work on the guns before shipping them to the final customer.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Actually while the numbers appear to be a date they aren't. It is a different numbering system. I want to say it identifies the shop, build, year or something along those lines. Comparable to how a tire might have a date stamp of 3622 which identifies it as being made in the 36th week of 2022.

Yes so while we would normally interpret 11/04/11 as November 4th, 2011, they reverse the month and day so it's 11.4.11, eleven.April.2011.

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

Again common sense not inuendo and knocking our Arian brothers out of prejudice . I do know a bit about Indian outlooks and first hand observed artisan's limitations & conversely abilities that rate highly in any ones fair assessment . Its the middle man forces the workers to short cut all down to price .

Vulgarly put'' You Pay peanuts you get Monkeys ','But I managed to' work up' these guns to be fire risks & Ime sure Loyalist arms do much the same . .I used just such a 'worked up' musket I had in the US for my Reenacting , a real' Cobblers kid' got up of the parts of three ruined muskets .All the Indian barrels I handled went through Birmingham Proof house no failures .
Rudyard's observations

Arian brothers ? Typo ?

 

[Rudyard]

Arian brothers ? Typo ?

Yes a typo just checked it is a typo & Aryan Brothers in a broad sense read Kipling,s Poem re ' Pagett MP' there is a line "Hammered I grieve to say Aryan brothers who fanned him in an il liberate way " referering to the heat & the Punka Wahlas who operated the punkas . Viz human powered fans operated by pulling ropes Seemingly Pagett was a visiting MP who scoffed at the problems of Indian Civil servants He arrives in the cool season but gets a shock once the hot season comes on with all its attendant problems .No guns in it so will desist on this post .
Regards Rudyard
.

 

[Rudyard]

Yes so while we would normally interpret 11/04/11 as November 4th, 2011, they reverse the month and day so it's 11.4.11, eleven.April.2011.

LD

Same as most British recording of dates IE month ,day, year .I cant speak for Europe but perhaps it just the US do it the other way round .not that it matters overly .
Cheers Rudyard

 

[jd945043]

Despite the attitude in your first line you gave very good information on what was going on and you also perhaps inadvertently brought something else to light. The maker was identified at least to a point. Most of the comments made by folks on this topic smear all Indian made arms. Not all are going to be bad - the same can be said that there are crappy Italian, Belgian, Spanish and even US made arms. I would want to have no part of any barrel made by R.A. At the same point I have purchased new in the past a rifle made by a renowned Italian maker that was unsafe. Does that make everyone they make unsafe or every arm made in Italy unsafe? Absolutely not I am sure it was an aberration. Objectivity needs to be what matters in these posts. You gave objective information as to the test. Thank You.

I agree with you. I personally have had three Pedersoli rifles and not A one was dependable until I got rid of the cheap Locks and replaced them with good locks. That's been my Experience and none of you telling me that yours works great will change my experience. Now My Pedersoli Kentucky is a reliable gun because I have a good Siler Lock on it. Not All Italian guns are bad and not all Indian muskets are bad. Until you get a dog in the race don't put your negativity in the pot

 

[FlinterNick]

I agree with you. I personally have had three Pedersoli rifles and not A one was dependable until I got rid of the cheap Locks and replaced them with good locks. That's been my Experience and none of you telling me that yours works great will change my experience. Now My Pedersoli Kentucky is a reliable gun because I have a good Siler Lock on it. Not All Italian guns are bad and not all Indian muskets are bad. Until you get a dog in the race don't put your negativity in the pot

I would never buy a pedersoli flintlock rifle to begin with, there are so many better choices here in the states, why bother. The only pedersoli flintlock rifle i think is even worthy of recognition is their Jaeger Hunter, which is not an authentic Jaeger at all, but it’s a nice little handy rifle.

I’m a pedersoli sharps fan, especially in 50-70.

 

[TFoley]

Same as most British recording of dates IE month ,day, year .I cant speak for Europe but perhaps it just the US do it the other way round .not that it matters overly .
Cheers Rudyard

Most of the world writes a similar date the same way as those perfidious Brits - Day - Month - Year.