India Torador Matchlock Wall Gun

[Sam squanch]

Rickystl is behind the door with his harem…..

 

[rickystl]

The old boy in the shooting position is sighting down the bbl.....finger on the trigger.....with the sharp toe of the buttstock stuck in his shoulder, should have several medics nearby to put what is left of his shoulder and cheek bone after the recoil spins him 360 degrees! The ole boy in front may need to have his jaw bone repositioned and ear ring removed from his cranium. ooooweeeeeeeee!

I wonder what is behind the green door, as the old song went....

It was actually offered in an auction a few months ago. As I recall, it was passed on. They were asking too much on opening bid. Think they mentioned it was about 50-lbs. LOL

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Rickystl is behind the door with his harem…..

That's right Sam. Take it to the gutter. LOL !!!

Rick

 

[Sam squanch]

Hey, I didn’t say what you were DOING behind the door! You could be playing cards for all we know!

 

[TobJohn]

Hey, I didn’t say what you were DOING behind the door! You could be playing cards for all we know!

 

[rickystl]

Hey, I didn’t say what you were DOING behind the door! You could be playing cards for all we know!

At 73 more likely playing with old guns. LOL !!!!

Rick

 

[cyten]

I was told by an armourer at the Enfield armoury that they sometimes used old chopped up cine film as ‘powder’ in these muskets. Apparently cine film used to be made from a form of nitro-cellulose so it was fairly combustible. Whether this was true or not is debatable, but the guy did know his stuff so maybe…?

I recall this being done to reload Rolling Block cartridges by Mexico during their revolution

 

[RAEDWALD]

Hi Pukka

That is a real possibility. Never really thought of that. The reuse of old barrels was common during the period. And I would guess especially in that part of the World. With the exception of the decorated barrels, the only marks you see on these barrels are the later - maybe much later (?) are the letters/numbers from capture and/or rack designations.

Somewhere in my library I have a manuscript of how these barrels were made, But I can't remember where I read it. I remember the methods were very primitive including the use of clay and cow dung. LOL I remember coming across this by accident. And it is written from the early 1800's. Darn. I just have to make a concerted effort to find it. I've never seen this published anywhere else.

Rick

Baden Henry Powell in his 1872 Volume 2 of the 'Handbook of the Economic Products of the Punjab' (Hand-book of the economic products of the Punjab, with a combined index and glossary of technical vernacular words .. : Baden-Powell, B. H. (Baden Henry), 1841-1901 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive) pp 285-9 details and illustrates how such rifles were made in the Punjab of the 1860's and would be quite familiar to any American artisan gunmaker of long rifles.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I was told by an armourer at the Enfield armoury that they sometimes used old chopped up cine film as ‘powder’ in these muskets. Apparently cine film used to be made from a form of nitro-cellulose so it was fairly combustible. Whether this was true or not is debatable, but the guy did know his stuff so maybe…?

Indeed it was done but in refilling breech loading cartridges ie .303” with a filed smooth used bullet and primer refilled with red match heads and ground glass. NO DO NOT DO THIS AT HOME! Definitely not for use in matchlocks. Not only are you making smokeless nitro powder but the aged stuff is unstable by now. Old film restorers have to take special safety precautions when restoring old films on nitro cellulose stock and copy it onto new safe film stock for actual use.

 

[rickystl]

Raedwald: Thanks for the additional information. I will read it soon.

I somehow mis-placed the barrel making information someone had sent me years ago. And I couldn't remember who sent it or what book it came from. Fortunately Pukka remembered the book. And, as luck would have it, I found a copy online at a reasonable cost. Sure enough, the original information I was looking for was there (thanks again Pukka).

Rick

 

[RAEDWALD]

Baden Henry Powell in his 1872 Volume 2 of the 'Handbook of the Economic Products of the Punjab' (Hand-book of the economic products of the Punjab, with a combined index and glossary of technical vernacular words .. : Baden-Powell, B. H. (Baden Henry), 1841-1901 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive) pp 285-9 details and illustrates how such rifles were made in the Punjab of the 1860's and would be quite familiar to any American artisan gunmaker of long rifles.

There are better illustrations on:
https://archive.org/details/dli.csl.5189/page/n359/mode/2up

 

[TobJohn]

Tob,
India goes from arid to steamy wet, but the damage is consistent it appears.
It would be very interesting to see the bores of some of the guns taken back to England as souvenires after the mutiny, to see if they retained a good bore or not.
The bores of the barrels from Oman are rough usually, but noit As rough as many from India.
I do not know about Persian barrels .

I was reading about Oman last night and if anyone is interested in researching their matchlocks first hand, they do have a collection in their national museum, and more importantly, are apparently a super stable and beautiful country to visit. Who knew!

 

[PhDBrewer]

Allright... still on first cup of coffee....

...more likely playing with old guns. LOL !!!!

Remember the difference from boot camp?
"... this is my rifle, this is my gun! This one's for fighting! This one's for fun!"
Now back to our (ir-) regularly scheduled nonsense...

Have a great day all!

William

 

[cyten]

I was reading about Oman last night and if anyone is interested in researching their matchlocks first hand, they do have a collection in their national museum, and more importantly, are apparently a super stable and beautiful country to visit. Who knew!

Don’t make the mistake I did in visiting during Ramadan! Difficult to even find a place that will sell you a bottled water during the day!
But the airport sells fancy bandolier belts in the gift shop!

 

[TobJohn]

Don’t make the mistake I did in visiting during Ramadan! Difficult to even find a place that will sell you a bottled water during the day!
But the airport sells fancy bandolier belts in the gift shop!
View attachment 295332

You are giving Rudyard a run for his money when it comes to being well travelled!

 

[cyten]

You are giving Rudyard a run for his money when it comes to being well travelled!

He and I have definitely bonded on that, both being overland hitchhikers. Though I’d say he has done it when the world was a more mysterious and romantic place, no internet or blogs to tell you what’s good and what to expect ahead of time. In SouthEast Asia now, where once upon a time I was working as a bartender/tour boat captain. I’ll try to find some relevant guns to post here if I come across any, just one “monkey gun” at a market near the Myanmar border but I didn’t have a my phone on me.

 

[rickystl]

Three (3) Torador Wall type guns just sold at one auction for $200.00 USD each. Appears all 3 were bought by the same bidder. Hope he doesn't require packing and shipping. Would easily double the cost. LOL He was probably local, and the only bidder. These Wall Guns don't bring much at auction.

Cyten: Those Monkey Guns with the long barrels and pistol grips often bring a decent price here in the States. Especially if they have one of those very crude flintlocks.

Rick

 

[MrTwelvette]

Three (3) Torador Wall type guns just sold at one auction for $200.00 USD each. Appears all 3 were bought by the same bidder. Hope he doesn't require packing and shipping. Would easily double the cost. LOL He was probably local, and the only bidder. These Wall Guns don't bring much at auction.

Cyten: Those Monkey Guns with the long barrels and pistol grips often bring a decent price here in the States. Especially if they have one of those very crude flintlocks.

Rick

Can confirm it's similar in the UK. My wall gun was offered at Holts sealed bid and didn't sell, I bought it when the unsold lots were re-offered. I'm not sure anyone wanted to arrange transport for a 9 foot gun!

Toradars are also quite affordable here except for the high end hunting Guns in good condition

my wall gun is plain and tired but the top of the breach end has a few inches of fish scale decoration that may clean up well.

 

[TobJohn]

Can confirm it's similar in the UK. My wall gun was offered at Holts sealed bid and didn't sell, I bought it when the unsold lots were re-offered. I'm not sure anyone wanted to arrange transport for a 9 foot gun!

Toradars are also quite affordable here except for the high end hunting Guns in good condition

my wall gun is plain and tired but the top of the breach end has a few inches of fish scale decoration that may clean up well.

It seems the near impossibility of exporting guns helps keep the prices low. I saw they had a Dreyse, in really good condition, that went for at least 1/3 as much as it would have in the US.

 

[rickystl]

UPDATE:

Well, as promised earlier, here are some pics of the shortened section of barrel. 95% of the cutting chore has to be awarded to Flint. And at now, 74 years old, I'm sure glad a younger man took on this task. I'll let Flint explain how tough this iron was to cut. I sure would not want to cut it using a regular hacksaw.
Anyway, as I anticipated, the bore condition of these Torador muskets are the worst I've ever seen. Heavy, flaking rust on top of other hardened rust and who knows what else. LOL The top section in the photo, at the rear of the breech, you can see the vent hole from the pan. In this case, instead of a larger powder chamber at the rear, we have a chamber that is slightly smaller than nominal bore size. But do note what originally formed this narrow section so the ball would sit on the slight ridge ahead of the powder charge. I can't really tell if this narrow section was formed with the barrel or the breech plug.
Fellow forum member Pukka also said the bores on these Torador muskets are the worst he has seen. He even put forth a possible theory that when these muskets were captured and rack numbered by opposing military troops, that they might have poured some type of acidic liquid down the bores so they could not be put back in service. Looking at this bore I'm starting to think it might be more than a theory. (?)
There's no way you could ram a ball of close size down this bore. Maybe they just shot these guns until they could no longer be loaded and returned to the arsenal to be refurbished ? Or simply discarded ? Hard to believe they would be discarded with all the labor it took to make them. But I'll let Flint mention how tough this iron is.

Rick